Tim Barker: How to Maximise Kingdom Impact Per Dollar #27
Can Christians be more rigorous about where they give, and how much difference each dollar actually makes? JD explores this with Tim Barker, founder of ROI Ministry, which researches Christian charities to identify giving opportunities that produce high levels of measurable “kingdom impact per dollar.”
Tim shares how losing his business led him to rethink Christian stewardship, why so little Christian giving reaches the world’s poorest and least-reached people, and how ROI Ministry evaluates organisations working in evangelism, discipleship, clean water, healthcare, housing and human trafficking prevention. They also discuss the difference between outputs, outcomes and genuine impact, the difficulty of measuring spiritual change, and how much confidence donors should place in metrics like decisions for Christ or children discipled.
Articles, Scripture, organisations, and other media discussed in this episode
ROI Ministry – Tim Barker’s organisation, which evaluates ministries according to what he describes as “measurable kingdom impact per dollar” and publishes an annual Top 10 list.
World Christian Trends, AD 30–AD 2200: Interpreting the Annual Christian Megacensus – The research volume Tim says changed how he thought about the allocation of Christian giving around the world.
Generous Giving – Tim says he initially encountered a reference to the global Christian giving statistics through Generous Giving.
The Prayer of Jabez by Bruce Wilkinson – Tim discusses the book and the prayer to “enlarge my territory” while recounting his own story of praying for greater impact.
Secrets of the Vine by Bruce Wilkinson – Mentioned by Tim alongside The Prayer of Jabez, which he says should be read together with it for balance.
Jesus Film Project – One of the ministries Tim names when discussing ROI Ministry’s recommended organisations.
Heart for Africa – Mentioned as another ministry on Tim’s list, including its use of the Jesus Film in Africa.
The Mailbox Club – A children’s discipleship ministry discussed at length as an example of ROI Ministry’s approach to measuring impact.
neverthirst – A Christian clean-water organisation Tim discusses as an example of measuring the number of people provided with safe water per dollar.
The Bucket Ministry – Another clean-water ministry discussed by Tim, using water filters alongside repeated follow-up and Christian ministry.
YWAM Homes of Hope – Mentioned by Tim as a ministry providing basic housing to families in lower-income settings.
MedSend – Discussed as a ministry working through healthcare in countries where conventional missionary access can be restricted.
She Is Safe – Tim discusses the organisation as an example of trafficking prevention and restoration, including work with children and families vulnerable to exploitation.
Calvin Edwards & Company – The research firm Tim says carries out deeper due diligence on ROI Ministry’s candidate organisations using around 60 data points.
When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert – Raised during the discussion of whether charity programmes actually improve outcomes relative to what would otherwise have happened.
Mentioned Scripture:
1 Chronicles 4:10 - “Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, “Oh, that you would bless me and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from harm so that I will be free from pain.” And God granted his request.”
Luke 15:7 - “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.”
Luke 4:18 - “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.”
Matthew 6:19–20 - “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
Matthew 6:3–4 - “But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
Episode Highlights:
The Dangerous Prayer That Led To ROI Ministry
“I prayed a prayer, a very dangerous prayer, and I said, God, do whatever you need to do so that we can make a greater impact. And then I followed it up with break my heart with the things that break your heart. And I caution your listeners, do not pray that prayer unless you're really ready for God to answer it, because He will.”
What Changed Tim’s Thinking About Christian Giving
“We as a church, we get an F in stewardship. And it pretty much reflected my own stewardship at that time. And so I was in tears over this information.”
ROI Ministry’s Core Idea
“Our simple, clearly defined metric for evaluating ministries is measurable kingdom impact per dollar.”
Why Tim Thinks Material Aid and Evangelism Belong Together
“If you provide somebody clean water, shelter, food, education, medical needs, but you don’t share with them Jesus Christ in light of eternity, what a disservice.”
Focusing on Impact Rather Than Dollars Raised
“We don’t celebrate the dollars... we get excited about the impact.”
Giving Without Seeking Recognition
“They don’t want the credit. They want all the credit given to God.”
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JD (00:01)
All right, I am excited to be here with Tim Barker, who is the founder of ROI Ministry. But why don't you introduce yourself, Tim? who are you and what is it you do to impact the world?
Tim Barker (00:13)
Thanks you, JD. Thanks for having me on your show today. Real excited about your audience and really the next generation of people that are interested in being better stewards with the resources God's entrusted to them. So ROI ministry got started about 15, 20 years ago. As I looked in this space, there really wasn't anybody in this space at that time that was doing this. And in a similar way where we were providing our
Our resources for free. but what it basically came down to is I prayed a prayer, a very dangerous prayer, and I said, God, do whatever you need to do so that we can make a greater impact. And then I followed it up with and break my heart with the things that break your heart. And I caution your listeners, do not pray that prayer unless you're really ready for God to answer it, because He will. I had a very successful business, was writing checks, love serving God, traveling around the world.
As one of the founders of John Maxwell's equip, co-partnered with the mega church pastor, and we're developing leaders in Indonesia, Eastern Russia, Western Africa, seeing, you know, some of the poorest places in the world. And God really gave me a heart for the world at that time. The billion poorest lost people in the world became personal to me because the numbers now mattered, because the people mattered as they always had to God. And so after that prayer, I came back.
really not thinking too much about how God was going to answer it. This was around the time Bruce Wilkerson had his best-selling book, The Prayer of Jabez, which really needs to be read with secrets of the vine to provide the balance. Otherwise, it's kind of a prosperity gospel if you you don't read the two. And but that that prayer was just God enlarge my territory, you know, make my my business or my bank account more so that we can give more. That's kind
JD (02:03)
Hm.
Tim Barker (02:03)
of what the prayer was at the time. I was saying, well, maybe God's gonna do that. We'll
Have more money, we'll be able to write larger checks. And that's not what he did. in a period of a short time, I had two clients not pay me like million-dollar progress payments on contracts,
JD (02:18)
Well.
Tim Barker (02:19)
large contracts. And if it happened once, I would have lived through it. But then my satellite office in Tennessee, it happened a second time. And I thought, God, what are you doing here? the bank froze the line of credit, couldn't get a surety bond. A lot of the government, a lot of the work I did was for the federal government. You have to provide a bond.
And so here I was in a three year battle fighting some of the largest corporations in the world to get paid for work that we had done. And it was in that valley after losing the business, my 401k, having to move out of our house because we couldn't make the mortgage payment. It was in that valley that God showed me some research. And he answered that prayer. He broke my heart with the things that broke his heart. And that research showed that at that time there was 370.
Excuse me, $270 billion coming into Big C church that's worldwide. And then where it went out. And where it went out was basically, for the most part, preaching to the choir, only one third of 1% was making it to reach the world's unevangelized, unreached people group groups, which by the way are the often most often the poorest of the poor. This isn't our poor. Our arbitrarily established poverty line is higher than the worldwide average income.
This is people at the time living off a dollar or two a day. And so I said, okay, God, He broke my heart. We as a church, we get an F in stewardship. And it pretty much reflected my own stewardship at that time. And so I was in tears over this information now. But thankfully, it was the World Christian Trends Annual Christian Mega Census. I found it on Generous Giving's website, just the reference to the percentages, bought the book.
Dug deep into it. And within the book, there was also the answer to this problem. And the answer was that the small amount that made it to what by the way, all you have to do is open up your Bible. Jesus said he came to preach the good news of the poor and take it to the ends of the earth. So you didn't have to read exhaustive research by Gordon Conwell University and 400 contributors. All you had to do is open up your Bible. But nonetheless, the the the research showed that when the resources made it to the poorest lost people in the world, whether ministering
To them through water, food, shelter, medical, or just sharing the gospel, planning churches, making disciples. On average, it was about 3,000 times more fruitful than where the average dollar is given today. And so I thought, hey, there's the answer. Let's see if we can find them. And we looked, spent many years, and I talked to the people that were head and shoulders above us in this space at that time, or at least there weren't movements. There were really individuals like you McClellan who opened up.
His project books sat down with me and said, Hey, this this ministry needs to be on your top 10 list. For those you listeners, he's the guy behind generous giving, by the way. And he he he really was a great inspiration to me. I still have an email from him. I just cherish to this day. And and so we developed this top 10 list, and we've been doing that ever since. And God, by the way, God completely restored.
The years the locust eight, I not only moved into greater areas of influence, but affluence in my industry. I'm not going to talk about my day job, but I'm probably one of the top two consultants in the space. And I've got clients in Australia and different places around the world. But we also, I just share that to say that we were able to our board to underwrite all our expenses so that what we do provide is completely free, including the due diligence and the research.
that's behind it. So that's that's my story. we've been doing this for almost 20 years now. others have joined us in this this space. Lane Kitt came to me about six years ago. I was real excited talking to him about what he's doing as you and I got to experience this all access conference last week. He did a great job. And I was just so excited meeting you and others there and just seeing so many younger people that have a similar heart and desire.
to to make a difference, to impact the world and do it in ways that are gonna matter most to them, to God and others forever. So I know that's a long intro, but appreciate it.
JD (06:29)
Awesome. No, I'm I'm glad you're
here. And and I think we can dig into it because you you're talking to an audience that cares about tackling large global problems in really far off places. I think
Anyone that looks at the numbers and our community does, realizes that most of the need is not in our backyard, frankly. And most of the opportunity is elsewhere, especially in missions and the 1040 window. And if we really care about the world and about the gospel and the kingdom of God, not just for ourselves and our communities, but also, you know, not to the exclusion of them, but also for the whole world as, you know, as
as we read in scripture that this is good news for the whole world, and gospel for the world, then then then w we have to care about what's happening in India or in North Africa or elsewhere. And frankly, that's where almost none of the money or resources are going. So you just put all this together and it seems plausibly like a really impactful
place to do ministry, whether that's ministry for the poor or or or making the gospel known in word. And let's dig into some of your ratings. Maybe you could share kind of rapid fire the top 10 charities that you currently recommend and maybe like one or two sentences about what it is they do. Can we can I ask you that?
Tim Barker (07:45)
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, most definitely. And so we we didn't set out to have a balance between evangelism, discipleship, church planning, and compassion ministries, but interestingly, we do, and we do every year. So that's kind of the God thing in it, which is real excited, exciting for us. Our sole metric.
JD (08:02)
'Cause your whole thing
is maximizing measurable kingdom impact, is that right?
Tim Barker (08:06)
Yeah,
our our sole metric, and we we tr we spent a lot of time trying to make complicated simple. John Maxwell said that he said educators will make simple complicated. And he said, you know, great leaders, I think this is what he said, will make complicated simple. And so if you want to to get people motivated, get them behind something, make it clear, make it concise. but again.
Spent a lot of time trying to make complicated simple. So that's what we've tried to do.
JD (08:34)
Sure.
Tim Barker (08:35)
And so our simple, clearly defined metric for evaluating ministries is measurable kingdom impact per dollar. So there's a lot there, measurable kingdom impact per dollar. And so it's we're not saying it's God's top 10 list. I have people come to me all the time. Hey, what about this ministry? We love them, or I I lead this ministry. And
JD (08:57)
It's very hard
for people to hear to see that their ministry is not on the list and to think that this list is a judgment against them, which it's not, right? This is a list of I know Givewell, who
Tim Barker (09:04)
Yeah, nearly at all.
JD (09:06)
does this kind of research to the extreme in the global poverty and health space, they frame it as outstanding opportunities. They're looking for outstanding opportunities to give that are evidence-backed, maximizing your impact per dollar, which I think helps get around some of that kind of implicit judgmentalism that is possible or at least misinterpreted.
By some readers.
Tim Barker (09:28)
Yeah, most definitely. And and think about it. Just think if who who'd watch baseball or football or soccer if we didn't have playoffs and we didn't get excited about the the best teams. And nobody's the
JD (09:41)
Right.
Tim Barker (09:41)
best every year. It changes. And so it's a Yeah, yeah. So it's motivating.
JD (09:43)
Well let's let's jump into it, Tim. I wanna hear the top ten you've got right now. Yeah.
Tim Barker (09:47)
Yeah. So we have Embracing God. they share the gospel through
Digital platforms, right? The internet phones, they've got 4,000 online missionaries. We have the Jesus Film Project, which I think most of your listeners will be familiar with. It was the most effective ministry tool in my generation. so we have a Heart for Africa, which also uses the Jesus Film to share the gospel throughout Africa.
We have the Melbox Club, John, Mark Eager, great organizations. They disciple kids through discipleship lessons. And when we have a discipleship ministry, we got to define what it is, what is discipleship, right? We we gotta qualify and quantify. And so let me back up on the on the
Indicated decisions for Christ, we're not just looking for a raised hand or a checkbox. We're asking the next question. How did you connect them with the local church? How did you connect them with a a body of believers? If they're in a closed nation, what type of resources digitally are you providing to them to move them along in their relationship with God? And because of that, we use some of our ministries are going to change this next year, and you're going to see the impact per dollar change because they're going a lot deeper into that.
Because not only us but others are asking them the same questions. Yeah. And and we know the statistics. A lot of people can raise hands. They might do it two or three times in their lifetime, right? So as making indicate decisions for Christ. But I like to tell people that tell me, Well, aren't we called to make disciples? I said, most definitely. but keep in mind, all of heaven rejoices one person that turns from sin and turns towards Christ. So if it's important enough for all of heaven, yeah, it's also yeah.
JD (11:27)
Yes. To me, this is also a really important indicator that the conversion is signific.
Yes. Yes.
Tim Barker (11:32)
You gotta make that decision before you become discipled. So it's
not, it's not like all our ministries in in organizations that are not on our top 10, it's not either or it's and both. Most of our board Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
JD (11:42)
This is good, right? Keep going, Tim. We I wanna hear I wanna hear the rest of the ten, yeah.
Tim Barker (11:46)
So we got the Mobux Club. they they provide discipleship for children through through 12 note notebooks, which is great. we have a couple water ministries, and what's great about them.
never thirst, they're putting wells in places where you gotta go a thousand feet deep. So it's expensive, but for five dollars per person, you can provide somebody water for a year. By the way, there's some really popular charities out there that do the same thing with rock star leaders that have, you know, a hundred million dollar budgets that many churches and and and philanthropic organizations are platforming and supporting, but they don't share Jesus. So ours not only
does it for one twentieth the cost, but they're also sharing Jesus because they're ministries. That's what differentiates what's on our list and what's not is hey, how are you how are you using this to further the kingdom, providing that living water. We have another one, the bucket ministry. They do it through filtering water with a bucket. So you get Sub-Saharan Africa and other places, Southeast Asia, they got plenty of water, but you can't drink it. It's it's you can't drink right out of the Amazon. Although people do all the time and that's why the
There's so many health problems there. And so this has a filter. What's great about that is they've got to have some maintenance on this filter. And so you have somebody from their ministry coming back on a regular basis and sharing the gospel again or discipling them. Incredible resource. We have YWAMP's Home for Hopes, Home for Hopes and and Home for Hopes, excuse me.
great organization. So they're providing shelter for about a buck sixty a day, which which is phenomenal. And that's you know, as we know, the difference between getting out of poverty and and actually being able to to have a family is is having a home. And these are basic homes. They're eleven twelve thousand dollar homes in developing places. But if you don't have a home, your kids can't get on the school bus if you're you're in a poor area. So it's it really is what's bringing people
out of poverty. We have served. They're pr they provide mills, Southeast Asia, South Sub-Saharan Africa, and we're talking in the sense. So you can provide mills and this isn't just a saltine cracker and a cup of water. It's a it's it's a real mill.
JD (13:58)
Have you had one?
Tim Barker (14:00)
you know, I I I have. It's a bag of like superfood. It's kind of like beans and rice. And I've tried it before. I can't say I I had as a meal, and it's you know, we wouldn't consider it to be great, but when you're starving, it's great. I mean, and you can eat the the same thing. I let's see, did I go go down the list of all of them? Medcin. So if you Medcin's an amazing organization, dollar dollar and a half.
For somebody to go see a doctor and they're in nations, all many nations that are close to missionary visas. So they're not gonna let you there if you wanna come share the gospel, but they'll let medicine in and like our water and other ministries, they'll let them in because they're bringing something that they want, and then they use that to share the gospel. let's see, let me see if I forgot any.
Let me pull up the list to make sure I I don't leave one out. If no, I'm sure I'm gonna get a call from one of them. I think I got them all. But what's your next question? And I'll come back to to that.
JD (15:01)
Thanks.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So, you know, you're recommending organizations with a lot of different kinds of ministries, a lot of different programs. The outcomes look pretty different on some of these metrics, but you you distill it into maximum measured kingdom impact per dollar. So, so what are the what are the outputs that you're comparing here? I would imagine some of these seem like apples to oranges. what do you say to that?
Tim Barker (15:26)
Yeah, great question. And one that I forgot. So I know I would forget one. We're in the process of updating LS, so we've got some changes. She is safe. Let me give you a great example there. It's human trafficking prevention and restoration. Looked years to find a ministry in that space. It's so, so expensive. and so tragic. But with three daughters and a wife, I mean it it's it's
It it's something you can't turn your your back to. Love what Tim Tebow is doing and others in this space. And so we you know, for them, it's what does it look like? What does that cost per individual to train them and actually their family as they're leading them to Christ that hey, it's not right to sell your one daughter to feed your other five kids.
And that's sometimes what it comes down to. And it's tragic when you put yourself in the shoes of these situations. And so here's an organization for a defined dollar amount that's training the child, not only the child, but the family on, hey, this isn't right, and then providing them some work skills so that they could get out of it. But to to let me provide you the probably the cleanest example, water's real easy. So our two water ministries, they look at providing someone clean water for a year again.
Never thirst, it's a little more expensive if they're drilling a well. the bucket ministry, it's a little less, it's just a a filter on a bucket, but they both have great strategies for using that to share Christ. And that again is based on the cost per person per year. Go to the mills, it's it's simple, it's just the cost per mill. Yeah, sure.
JD (16:57)
Sure. So let me let me let me dig into this. So like and you have this
helpful calculator on your website which helps people put in money to outputs. So if I
Tim Barker (17:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
JD (17:07)
put in if I put in a thousand dollars, for instance, it will tell me that 162 people with access to safe water for one year through Neverthirst, or even even more than that, through the bucket ministry, 746 persons receiving clean water for for
Tim Barker (17:24)
Isn't that awesome?
JD (17:25)
one year.
Tim Barker (17:26)
Yeah, so
JD (17:26)
Yeah, that's that's awesome. So, so how so how does
so two things. I guess one, how are you thinking about trading off people receiving clean water to like one of these other outputs, like people receiving a medical consult, right, with MedSend? That's one. But then another the deeper question I think comes back to the kingdom impact. How how are you translating these to spiritual outcomes, like people making a a a real decision for Christ or really coming to faith?
Tim Barker (17:52)
Yeah, so and you know what? Lane addressed this and I actually followed up with him on a call yesterday because he had talked about the rating of you know of ministries and I think particularly maybe it was Charity Navigator, you know, the the four stars, and how how he wasn't for that when he explained it to me, I said, Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly in in what you just told me.
and here's the thing, if you look at God's word, it's not an either or, it's an and both. I mean, he's called us to to make disciples. He's called us as I as again as the ultimate example, he came to preach the good news of the poor. He told us to take that to the ends of the earth. But you get to this story of the the good Samaritan, and at the end of the day, the good Samaritan, he took care of the person. He was he was naked, he was beaten, and you don't
You don't get a gr a gospel presentation in that story because Jesus was using it to get a point across, but he did end it by saying, Go and do likewise. And so we have, we we haven't been told to do one or the other. We've been told to do all of them. And just for your listeners though, so they should know, we always say the people that we're looking for are people that are supporting and serving and giving in their local churches. And I'm not gonna t get into the tithe debate. Tithe is
training wills. And if you want to look at the New Testament, Jesus says he owns it all. And so so when the people but we found that people that are faithful in those little things, and I again I say it ties a little thing, God blesses so that they can do greater things. And so that's
JD (19:29)
Sure. So you don't have
like an internal trade, like you're not making some kind of calculation about how to trade off people receiving medical care to people getting clean water to be these just seem like all clearly thing clearly good things to do. And you want to support Christian ministries that are doing these things well. Does that sound right?
Tim Barker (19:50)
Yeah,
yeah, and not just Christian ministries. What we're wanting to support, because Jesus tells us this when you give someone a cup of clean water in my name, because you're my disciple, he puts the emphasis on and even if you look at his signs and wonders where he healed people and where he provided water and where he turned water into wine or whether it was feeding the thousands, it was always to point people to him. He didn't heal everybody. Remember, he walked by a bunch of people.
down to the pool to heal the one guy, so take up your mat and leaves. And then he walks over all those people to walk out of there. And so why did he do that? What what was the reason for it? Because at the end of the day, the most important thing is that we need to share Jesus. And here's why. And this is going to be very controversial and it's fine. I'll take, you know, people can reach out to me and we'll debate it all day long. But if you provide somebody clean water, shelter, food, education,
Medical needs, but you don't share with them Jesus Christ in light of eternity. What a disservice. I would say it's it's as a Christian, I would say that's even unfortunate. Now, what I'm not saying here, in my I'm not saying, hey, we should never give to organizations that aren't sharing Jesus. But if you want to talk about priority, our priority is in the good that you do, make sure that you're using it to share Jesus. The other reason why there's only four percent.
Of the 3.7 trillion dollars available each year for nonprofits, only four percent of that is going to Christian ministries. And so when I see organizations or people from the outside coming into Christian groups and encouraging Christians to give money to organizations that are not sharing Jesus, and there's organizations that do share Jesus for a way better impact per dollar, I go, why are we doing this? And and and that
is an ugly situation. You start to peel back the layers of the onion there and I'm telling you you're gonna find some very interesting things which we don't have enough time to talk about on this episode. But I've been in the space for a
JD (21:52)
Sure. So I think I think we see
this issue differently, but I don't know if I'll have time to dig into it. But I just want to ask some more fundamental questions about
Tim Barker (21:57)
Right. Sure.
JD (22:00)
how you're thinking about measuring outputs and outcomes, right? because you you don't just want to track hands raised, you want to somehow find some sort of robust measurement for how many people are really making this genuine repentance, turning away from sin and death and turning towards faith in Jesus Christ, right? And now
How is it that you think about that from some of these metrics that these organizations are are tracking? Like is there is there a fundamental metric or that that
Tim Barker (22:29)
Yeah.
JD (22:29)
you're that you're tracking here?
Tim Barker (22:31)
Yeah. And and was Rachel McDonald talked about this, right? Is that correct in her book and in her presentation that was there last week as we talked about as she talked about the difference between outputs and outcomes and then ultimately we should be about impact. Is do you recall that?
JD (22:48)
Okay, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yes, yes.
Tim Barker (22:49)
Yeah, it was it Kate that talked about that? I'm sorry.
I I I I I need to apologize. yeah, Rachel talked about the heart and the mind, which I also love too. So a lot of great speakers last week. But yeah, the we're ultimately not about outputs, although outputs lead to outcomes, so they're not it's not that they're not important. You know, we we broadcasted the gospel to a million people. Hey, that's great.
we're ultimately looking at well how how many made indicated decisions for Christ. it was 100 grand. That's that's that's great. So that's the outcome, but then ultimately what ties into the outcome is the impact. So we're about the return on impact, the return on investment, as as we heard in that great. Yeah.
JD (23:30)
Right. Relative to what would have happened otherwise.
Right. So so how but how how is it that ROI ministry assesses that? Right. So you're tracking outputs, you're tracking things like decisions made for Christ, children discipled. how is it that you're thinking and your team are thinking about tracking what would have happened otherwise, right? What relative to the control, relative to if if if these ministries weren't being funded, their activities weren't happening.
Tim Barker (23:59)
Yeah, so and we're a little honored. There's some others that have copied us in this space and we have we have a copyright and it's as long as you copy it right, we're okay with it. We're not a competition in the kingdom organization. And and I'll tell you what it is. We have a a two-step process, quantification, qualification process that we go through with each ministry, and a lot of a lot of them will apply through our online.
platform it's available when I ever hear about a great industry ministry or somebody tells me about one I great we got application process please go ahead and submit it or if you know of one or if you want to nominate one we're also active out there looking at different ministries. but yes so we're looking at you know obviously you know candid cherry navigator they do that real blunt look at the 990s that's helpful but it's not something you should ever make a decision on giving based upon I think it it just gives you the financial
picture. What we're ultimately looking at as good stewards of God's resource is that ultimate outcome, that impact, right? And how do you determine getting to that? So so with that, so
JD (25:03)
Right. So how how do you get to that? Right, is what I'm asking. Yeah.
Tim Barker (25:06)
just make sure. So when we get there, we'll do the I'll do the initial or our board will do the initial review. We'll ask them some questions about how the ministry
determines that. Now again, we need another hour because there's 10 different ways, right? If you're looking at 10 different ministries or 10 different types of ministries, but then well yeah. Yeah. So so so then the next step
JD (25:24)
Give me an example. Like maybe, maybe the mailbox club. How how are you tracking like with them?
Tim Barker (25:30)
after they tell us, they answer the questions as it pertains to that. Then we hand that information over to Calvin Edwards and company and then they do a deeper dive. We've established about 60 different data points.
And they will dig into that the the information provided by the ministry to to trust and verify that it's correct and ask them how they you know for your question, how are you qualifying that you're you know taking twelve kids through
excuse me, a a child through twelve lessons. Now, would they have gone to your question? Would they have that same child had gone through those twelve lessons before? No. If especially if it's an area that the Melbox Club wasn't at doing ministries. So the ministries aren't going to places that are already having needs met. The ministries that we're working with for the most part, they're looking for places and needs where they're where where there is a need, not where they're just copying somebody else's
JD (26:29)
Sure. So
Tim Barker (26:31)
plan.
JD (26:32)
so just to play devil's advocate, because I know people are thinking this. I just want to ask it. So take
Tim Barker (26:36)
Sure.
JD (26:36)
a thousand dollars donated to the mailbox club. your your calculator helpful helpfully shows me that this results in outputs of one thousand two hundred and eighty-two children discipled, right? It just for a refresher for anyone who isn't familiar, Mailbox Club is it's a Christian ministry that teaches kids about Jesus through free Bible lessons. So the way it works is in
And Tim, I think you know it better than I do, but the the summary that I could tell is that a child gets a lesson you know, often by mail, right? The mailbox or from a local church or a mentor, and then they they fill it out and they send it back, and someone checks it, they pray for that child, and then they send the next lesson, and then children level up, if you will, in into into greater and greater discipleship. And these are mostly children,
And it's partnered also with Samaritan's Purse and it's working in central, I think it's Central Asia.
Tim Barker (27:30)
Yeah, so
yeah, let me you you got a lot there, so I'll let me unpack that real quick. So originally
JD (27:33)
Sure, yeah.
Tim Barker (27:34)
the originally they were, John Mark Eager and and Franklin Graham are like this, so they are tight. but originally they were just providing it for Operation Christian Child, the shoebox. And so they would provide the initial lesson there, and then the the children would subscribe and it was like a subscription service, and then they would get 12 different
notebooks that I think for the most part was partnered through local churches. So it wasn't just that you got something in the mail. and and some people say, well, why don't you give it to them on their phone? Wouldn't it be cheaper? Well the problem with that i is just having the ability to touch it. Even if they did have a phone, a lot of the kids don't but the the the those get passed around to three to six to eight other kids. So they're only measuring the impact of the one but the reality is it's a lot greater. And so
They're qualifying discipleship as taking a child through these 12 lessons. And what's amazing about this is we think we were talking earlier how you need to come to Jesus before you can be disciple. Well, I'm going to be corrected. They're being discipled, and then most of those kids come to Jesus by going through these 12 Bible lessons. So again, the most of their partners are churches, local churches, because
like most good ministries, just sending something to somewhere or to somebody is is not good stewardship. and especially, you know, I've been to places in Sierra Leone where I showed up at the the the camp, unfortunately, where the refugee camp where all the people were unfortunately
residing after Charles Taylor's reign of terror. Anybody ever watched the Blood Diamond came through all these amputees in the village. And if I we took a bunch of food and and supplies there and I made sure that I left it with the leader, not just and then then that the gr community came out so they so they knew it was there so that the so it couldn't be resold. So I hope that answers the question. You did talk about go ahead. Mm-hmm.
JD (29:31)
Sure. But take but take take
the mailbox club. So so we have millions of children who are receiving this this this this ministry and and it costs very, very little per child reached. Do you know what what it comes out to? Just under a dollar, right.
Tim Barker (29:49)
Yeah, just under a dollar. So it's just
just under a dollar for the twelve. So that's and and think about that.
JD (29:55)
And what's the what's so what's
the estimate of like per child reached how many children make a decision to follow Jesus?
Tim Barker (30:05)
I think I definitely over half. And I think John Markier told me between seventy to eighty percent just from going through the lessons. But I definitely could get back to that. But we're measuring there, not evangelism. We're measuring discipleship and in how they defined it so that when you go to the calculator and you put in a dollar amount, it says here's the outcomes, outputs, excuse me, outcomes and the impact per dollar given.
that's what it is. Now keep in mind that's based upon last year's results because we're looking at the 990 and the information from the previous year. We don't guarantee that's going to be the results next year. But what's great, I'm glad you're talking about the Mailbox Club because we've had them on our list for 10 years and their impact per dollar cost has come down every year, even with inflation, which blows my mind. so yeah.
JD (30:53)
So
let's but let's let's take them as an example. So so it c like phenomenal numbers on the face of it, right? Like a dollar, like let's just say a dollar per per child served, and then many of these children, perhaps most make a decision, or or there's a report of a decision made to follow Jesus. So I guess like just some initial like like thoughts is like how much how much is there some kind of
some kind of survey of children who were in the mailbox club years ago, but you know, five, ten years out of the program, w we ask them, Are you still following Jesus? What are your faith practices like? I'm c I'm curious, you know, has something like that been done? In the development space with a program like this, you you would do oftentimes some kind of
Randomization, you'd have a control group and they wouldn't maybe for a year get the mailbox club and then you'd have a treatment arm and they would, right? And you would randomly assign who's who. So I I guess for for some of these other s survey follow-ups or even experimental measurements, so what has been done for something like the mailbox club?
Tim Barker (31:52)
Yeah. So
now now you're getting in this sentence I had a conversation with Cody and Keelan over at the the finish line not too long ago. And and really you're you're starting to talk about kind of the concepts of toxic charity and when helping hurts and those kind of things, right?
have you moved the needle? Is it is there a baseline that you can look at and is it better? And I'll let you know the answer to this question is yes, and it's really good. But what I would like to have you do, and you can have him on a subsequent podcast episode, and he would be happy to start off with John Mark Eager and ask him those questions. And I know your audience will love to get the answers again.
JD (32:28)
But you're but you're you're the
evaluator, right? So you you certainly have thought about the counterfactuals,
Tim Barker (32:31)
Yeah, we
JD (32:33)
right? And like the f like the the attrition rates and and like what happens relative to people who didn't receive this. So I I'm sure you've thought about this for Mailbox Club.
Tim Barker (32:44)
Yeah, yeah, we thought about it, but we're, you know, that is not our primary focus point. and again, I've had I had that question brought up before and I said let I'd be happy to answer it from the mouth of the executive director of the ministry rather than just have it be secondhand. Because that's not the primary thing that we're looking at that we're promoting. The things that we're looking at we're promoting, what's also great is that Calvin Edwards report is is available. There's no question as to what the 60 data points are.
as it pertains to each of the ministries. And then the other thing with the Melbox Club, you can go back the last ten years to see that their trend. And then again, let me know when you have John Mark Eger on. I'll introduce him to you. And or excuse me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
JD (33:23)
Sure. No, it'd be great to it'd be great to meet him. And I'm I'm tentatively
really excited about him. Like to be clear, I'm playing devil's advocate.
Tim Barker (33:30)
Yeah.
JD (33:30)
And then but like one thing, then a follow-up is so if I could articulate what ROI ministry is doing, it's finding really exciting giving opportunities for maximum measured kingdom impact where you're tracking meaningful outputs like people being discipled, people receiving clean water, people making a decision for Christ per dollar donated. What you're not doing is doing like
this kind of causal research, tracking control groups and treatment arms, tracking what would have happened otherwise, doing this kind of more academic background into trying to figure out like th that aspect of of things. Does that sound right?
Tim Barker (34:12)
Well,
we we have we have those discussions and we are considering those things, but that is not the area that we're promoting or supporting with the support that we provide. However, to answer your question, I I think you and your listeners will be very happy and pleased to hear what our our each of our ministries tell you. They've all read When Helping Hurts, they've all heard read Toxic Charity, and I've had some people
you know, come to us with these questions and I say, most definitely let me introduce you to the to the team and they'll be happy to address that for you. A lot of times, and I know you're not doing this, but a lot of times we get a lot of people that are just unfortunately trying to find reasons not to give or coming up with something that's very sophisticated and complicated or academia really promotes. and you go, yeah, that's a great concept. What we're looking at is proven ministries with a proven track record. Matter of fact, they don't even
get considered unless they've been around for five years and that they have you know they they they've they've spent some time and what we've also found and I just want to encourage your listeners especially the ministries because when I do meet a ministry that doesn't make our top 10 list I said hey you might be on God's top 10 lists and I want to encourage I know only you will know if God's called you to a specific area. And I say you need to do that because you could be in the
JD (35:32)
Hmm.
Tim Barker (35:32)
next Billy Graham or Bill Bright.
JD (35:35)
Mm.
Tim Barker (35:35)
but again we encourage
those ministries that are not on our list to say that each the ones that are, you'll you'll see this curve. And we saw it too at ROI ministry where they're plowing and seeding and plowing and seeding and plowing. And it's like a test. Are you going to make it pass? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure.
JD (35:50)
Sure. And Tim, we just got five more minutes. So I'd love to give you like like five rapid fire questions with like really quick answers. Okay? You ready?
Tim Barker (35:59)
Yep.
JD (36:00)
So if somebody's really interested in these Calvin Edward reports, because they're genuinely interested in like trying to figure out how these charities compare, they want to hear about these 60 data points that Calvin Edwards is looking at. How would somebody go about learning about that background research?
Tim Barker (36:15)
it's free. It's on our website. You just go to it and you you can find it. It's there's one for each of our top ten ministries and you can pull it down. All I think all you have to do is provide your email and it'll send it to you. And so you can look at every single one of them.
JD (36:28)
I'm curious about your thoughts about where ROI ministries will be in five years. What what's your what's your huge goal, your ambition for it, and what's holding you back from that?
Tim Barker (36:40)
You know, I don't I don't know what's holding us back. Well, I can tell you what's holding us back is is is we don't wanna spend
you know, fifty dollars to see a hundred dollars go into the kingdom. And that's often the case. People have big audacious goals and desires and and marketing networks. And we're we're really about
You
know, finding the proven things and then sharing that with people so that they know they're making a difference. And so the future, what I'm very excited about, especially with this next generation, is they are not interested in what traditionally has been the reason people have given in the past, and that is friendships, relationships, just a great story. What I'm very excited about, your generation and the next generation, they're looking for hey.
You know, let's cut through all that stuff. Let's cut through the marketing brochure and let me know how and where the ministry is doing great things and let me take a look at that information and get involved with it. And so that's what excites me the most. And there's billions and billions of dollars sitting for those older people, wealthier people in their donor advice funds. And I think if they could find out that there's a way that they can invest that temporal.
temporal resource into something that's going to be eternally beneficial to them and millions of others. Like I like, you know, it's been said, you know, where moth moth rust and market fluctuations can never destroy. Invest that in the people, I think that's I think that's very exciting. And so as far as the future, I think, you know, together, us working together, not criticizing each other, but just showing our our strengths, we could see
You know, billions of people impact in ways that matter to God, them and others forever.
JD (38:24)
Yeah, two more questions. So one, do you have any sense of the the the scope and scale of individuals who are donating by God's grace, who are donating through RI ministry?
Tim Barker (38:36)
Yeah, I mean we we get I'm working on a several hundred thousand dollar grant right now. we've had families give up to you know a million dollars but I get I get notified on my phone on on just about every gift that's given through our our NCF account. Reason we have that is so we don't have to touch a dollar. Matter of fact, someone gives to us, we don't touch a dollar. Yeah.
JD (38:53)
That's awesome. Do you know do you know what that comes out to every year? I'm really I'm really curious how many Christians are thinking this way. yeah, through
through ROI ministry.
Tim Barker (39:01)
So here's here's
the so yeah, I can tell you the answer and I'll tell you why I'm gonna answer the way I'm answer. We celebrate and there's a there's a big trend to celebrate generosity, which is great, but our stewardship is is not great. And so we don't celebrate the dollars because there's over ninety-two billion dollars annually worldwide giving to organizations that
are misappropriating those and these are Christian organizations so we don't get excited about the dollars the billions we're we get excited about the impact and the impact that we made we've made and we know this from getting the feedback from our ministries because most of the giving goes directly to them they don't give through our platform is we know we've been in we've impacted over 10 million people in ways that matter forever.
But no, we're so here's the other thing that we've made a commitment to our donors is we protect their confidentiality. And so when people give through our platform, we don't sell or share their information, we don't share who's given to what. It's not a network to to build some other business. And we surveyed our givers at one time, and that was a mistake, and a lot of them stopped giving. So a lot of people appreciate
JD (40:10)
wow.
Tim Barker (40:11)
the opportunity to have that.
ability to to not, you know, give without your left hand knowing what your right is. They don't want the credit. They want all the credit given to God and their rewards gonna be on the other side of eternity. We respect that. We love that. And yeah, that's that's what makes me excited about what we do.
JD (40:30)
Tim, thank you so much for coming on and all you do for for the good of the world and for the kingdom of God. Thanks so much.
Tim Barker (40:35)
Hey, thanks for having me. Keep it up. Appreciate it.
JD (40:38)
If folks want to stay in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? should they reach out on LinkedIn or reach out to me and ask for an intro to you?
Tim Barker (40:46)
Yeah, or you can contact us through our contact page on roiministry dot org. ROI Ministry dot org might take a little while to get back to you. but we'll definitely look forward to it and hopefully help you in any way we can.
JD (40:59)
Awesome. Thanks so much, Tim.
Tim Barker (41:00)
Hey, thank you.
