Santiago Gonzalez: Can You Serve Pharaoh and God? #21
Can a Christian follow the way of Jesus inside one of the world's most powerful and cynical institutions? And what does faithful public service actually look like when the stakes are millions of lives? JD explores this theme with Santiago Gonzalez, a former legislative director and top policy staffer in the US Senate, who recently joined a government affairs firm after years working on Capitol Hill. Santiago's journey began with a failed attempt at medicine, a global health class that changed everything, and a fellowship he stumbled into almost by accident. Along the way he worked to reauthorise federal programmes reducing premature births, championed legislation on antimicrobial resistance, and wrestled daily with what it means to negotiate, network, and legislate as someone formed in the way of Jesus. He draws on the stories of Joseph, Daniel, and Esther to argue that the most powerful thing a Christian can bring to politics is not strategy or connections, but a deeply formed life.
Articles, Scripture, organisations, and other media discussed in this episode
PREEMIE Act - A federal research programme studying how to prevent premature births, which is one of the first bills Santiago worked on as a Hill staffer.
PEPFAR - The US President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, which has recently been cut.
PASTEUR Act - Bill Santiago worked on to create a subscription-based payment model incentivising pharmaceutical innovation in antibiotics to address antimicrobial resistance.
The Center for Christianity and Public Life(CCPL) - Organisation Santiago is involved with, working to encourage and support Christians in public service.
Christians for Impact Congressional Staffer Report - An in-depth career guide for Christians interested in working on Capitol Hill.
ICM - A charity working with ultra-poor communities in the Philippines.
Dallas Willard, Renovation of the Heart- Santiago mentioned as his latest read in small group.
Pope Francis biography - Referenced by Santiago in connection with how formation shapes policy views, particularly on nuclear weapons.
Mentioned Scripture
Genesis 37-45 - The story of Joseph - trafficked by his brothers, he rose to serve Pharaoh's kingdom, managed famine relief across the region, and ultimately provided for his own family.
Daniel 1-6 - Daniel serving under a king who enslaved his people so ultimately a model of integrity in political service.
Galatians 5:22-23 - The fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace. Mentioned by Santiago as the benchmark against which any policy decision should be measured.
Episode Highlights:
Calling
“I don't think I could have worked in politics or worked in this space if it wasn't because I felt like I was called to and because it was a place that I feel like the Lord had me in the season that he has had me."
Not Just Numbers
"I think it can so easily become that, and this is something that I fought against in politics, just like my own mental ability to always be connecting it back to a face or a name was so important to me."
Formation Before Everything
“Was the first thing I was going to do is wake up and read Politico or Semaphore or Punchbowl... Or was the first thing that I was going to do is wake up and read a Psalm or a proverb. Like, it sounds like that's too simple, but it is as simple as that."
Winning vs Loving
"Winning was not the primary goal, but loving the other was the goal. And needing to have the wisdom to make the distinction between those two is."
Joseph as an Example
"Joseph really became a pro at what he was doing, but he always had his relationship with Yahweh at the forefront."
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Santiago Gonzalez (00:06.232)
Thanks for having me, JD.
JD (00:08.0)
So as we do with every guest, I'd like to ask you what it is you do and how is it that you make an impact on the world?
Santiago Gonzalez (00:16.728)
Yeah, thanks for that question. It's happy to super happy to be here. I am currently and recently just joined a government affairs firm. So I work with a number of clients to help them advance their policy and political priorities. But I am coming off of a long career working on Capitol Hill, most recently as a legislative director, top policy staffer for a senator. And so it is kind of going through a transition right now, which is kind of interesting. yeah, I think in that previous role and also in many ways in this role, I get to touch on a lot of different types of issues, whether it's health care, poverty, or immigration, or any of those kinds of things. And so I feel like it's not quite super specific, but I get to sort of work on kinds of things across different kinds of issues that has effects and impacts on the world in lots of different ways. So that's what's
JD (01:22.7)
How is it that you got into this? Was it since you were very young, you wanted to work in Congress, work in politics and policy? And how does that connect with your faith? I imagine faith was a big factor.
Santiago Gonzalez (01:34.444)
Yeah, I actually, interestingly enough, had no thoughts or desires or interests in working in policy or politics. For most of my life, I grew up in Colorado. I loved science. That was my favorite subject. And so for most of my life, I thought I wanted to be a doctor.
And so that was kind of the track that my folks put me on. And there was kind of a few doctors, I guess, in the family. I don't really know where it came from, except for that I knew I wanted to help people. Certainly that was a desire that came from probably my faith. My parents are both followers of Jesus. And so I think that that was a thing. But I...in college recognized that I actually absolutely hated and couldn't deal with blood like in bodily fluids and I it was
JD (02:40.246)
Yeah, I've heard the story before. How did you realize that? Was it like all at once when you were shadowing or?
Santiago Gonzalez (02:44.193)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was interesting. So everybody says when you want to be a doctor, you should go through a shadowing process. You should find a doctor who's willing to let you sort of suit up and go into the office with him. So I'd actually been on a sort of a mission trip. And I was, in that, during that trip, I was able to work with a number of doctors doing sort of community work. But then part of it was also working with him and a surgeon in a hospital and for whatever reason one of the, I don't even want to call it a rotation, but one of the sort of shadowing experiences I had was a brain surgery. so I go in, yeah, so I go into this place, was in an emergency room and so a little girl had been on a motorcycle and
JD (03:33.644)
say some brain blood.
Santiago Gonzalez (03:45.102)
they had crashed and so her brain was swelled up and it was a huge issue. And so they go in and honestly, it was a successful surgery, but all I could remember was how I was actually incapable physically of being in the room. The nurses were standing around me and like, hey, you need help?
I was like right in the face, like, I can't do this, like, anyways. And then I tried again a couple different times and like, I just recognize that like biochemically, which I say biochemistry, so this is totally legit, my reactions to these kinds of smells and seeing these kinds of things, I was not wanted to do it and so.
JD (04:34.06)
Right. You just weren't wired this way. You were not, you're not the one.
Santiago Gonzalez (04:40.352)
Anyway, so that's the long story behind me having a crisis of faith and having a crisis around things, then recognizing that I still wanted to help people and eventually through a long-winded process found public health and health policy and sort of like.
JD (04:56.064)
Yeah. Yeah. Share more about that. So in it's aligned with some of our top cause areas at Christians for impact. And we focus on causes that aren't just important, aren't just things that God cares about that affect a lot of people in very serious ways, but that are also really solve also really solvable, right? There's, there's clear things that individuals can do to make an impact and that given how solvable they are, they seem really neglected. So we would consider global health, one of those and public health is quite related to that. So you have a master's in public health, share a little bit more about how you made that pivot to public health and what that looked like for you.
Santiago Gonzalez (05:32.972)
Yeah, it was a really, I would say, God-ordained kind of situation. I mentioned I was kind of hit a crisis when I realized I didn't want to be a doctor. I think that was like everybody's expectation for my life. And then I sort of discovered and took a summer course on global health as sort of in college and recognized that the kinds of things that I cared about, which was mental s-you know spiritual as well as physical health were things that you didn't just have to do on an individual level but you could create systems or you could create programs that affected people and promoted their health on a wider scale. And so I was super drawn to that because I in my studies and in some of how was thinking I was like I could go into like the pharmaceutical industry which is an amazing industry where you're able to actually save people's lives by creating some sort of like, the biggest hot topic right now is mRNA vaccines that cure cancer. It's like an incredible thing, right? And I also wasn't a lab person. I wanted to be around people. And so public health, Toretta, was kind of a big way. And so I really discovered it kind of on accident. took this course. The guy who teaching it was mentioning public health strategies and all these things. And so I just kind of dove into it and discovered that if I still wanted to do this kind of work, support people's physical health, mental health, spiritual health, that it was a really good avenue to do that. So I really just started to ask that question. Like I, in college, was working with a bunch of kids whose parents had cancer and we had an organization that would support those families.
Because a lot of those kids, if you're parents of cancer, they find themselves not to their parents' fault, but they find themselves neglected or experiencing something that other eight-year-olds have never experienced. And so we had a program where we would give them free summer camp. And I just recognized that I just loved the feeling of being able to do that and felt like I was in my calling to be able to do that in that space. And so it was kind of this beautiful...
Santiago Gonzalez (07:57.096)
conglomeration of all sorts of experiences that I had had as well as loving to study and loving to discover new systems and processes and understand things and yeah, public health fell into that. And then the politics really came into, yeah.
JD (08:17.984)
Yeah, so you got a master's in public health and where was that again?
Santiago Gonzalez (08:21.708)
Yeah, so I attended school at GW, George Washington University, the Milken School of Public Health. It's one of the best public health schools in the country. And yeah, so I just came in there and again.
JD (08:34.048)
And when you started that, I'm guessing you weren't expecting to get involved in politics. guess you weren't expecting to become a staffer on the Hill.
Santiago Gonzalez (08:42.186)
Absolutely not. In my mind, I was going to do some sort of local public health program. Exactly, exactly. That was sort of what I envisioned, but I wanted to do it at sort of a more evidence-based level. And that's what I thought. And I found myself in, again, a number of classes. It's Washington, D.C., so you have a lot of people who have worked in politics and policy at sort of the highest levels.
JD (08:49.292)
Kind of like what you've done for the families with cancer. Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (09:11.982)
in government and they were professors of mine in class and I, you know, were was studying under them and I decided, you know, one day I was going to finish my master's in public health, move back to Colorado, which is where I grew up and I'm from and do that work. And a couple of my professors said, hey, before you leave town, you should consider doing some sort of federal internship or political internship.
because while you're in DC, why wouldn't you do that? And at the time I didn't know much and I really trusted them and so was like, great, I'm gonna try to figure this out. I somehow found myself getting a fellowship on the Hill with a Senator from my state who I went on to work for for many years, but I sort of accidentally fell into it. Like it was not a thing that I had ever anticipated.
But while I was in it, and we can get into this a little more, while I was in it, I recognized that it had all of the kinds of things that I was passionate about and was interested in, and it was super high impact. And so I ended up a month and a half into that fellowship. I recognized that politics and the policy world was exactly what I wanted to be doing with my life.
JD (10:36.46)
So what are some examples of how politics policy translated into real world outcomes for the sick? What did that look like? Because I think a lot of people, hear programs, they think systems, they hear scale. It can be dehumanizing. And initially, they might have been drawn like you were to that kind clinical practice. So where do you see those outcomes from what at times is maybe like very strategic abstract work?
Santiago Gonzalez (10:45.516)
Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (11:04.812)
Yeah, I'll just give you the example. So everybody says like there's always this aha moment where you catch the hill bug is kind of what people say. I joined this office and the center I was working for was on two major health committees and it was a little bit of an intense moment.
JD (11:06.252)
Maybe a couple of bills or like, you know, a couple of examples. Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (11:31.15)
Republicans were trying to overturn the Affordable Care Act and it was just like there was so much going on. It was the same year that all of these FDA programs needed to get reauthorized and CDC program. It was just such a crazy year in 2017, which is when this all started, that the center I was working for was working on a lot of different projects and they said, can you just run point on this one project?
and it was to reauthorize a program called the PREMI Act. And what the PREMI Act does was it was a research program to research how to address prevent premature births. And so there's obviously a ton of different kinds of things that go into why a baby might be born ahead of their due date. And so it was a small program in the grand scheme of things. It was like a $10 million program over 10 years, which
That sounds like a lot of money, but in the federal government, it's like a drop in capital. Yeah. And so they put me on that project and it was a bipartisan, bicameral, there were all these advocates that were supporting the work that would introduce us to individuals, moms, parents who had kind of gone through this. And you could see that in the research.
JD (12:30.908)
in like a seven trillion dollar budget that's really not much.
Santiago Gonzalez (12:54.816)
it was leading to changes in the way that we actually care for, and that OB-GYNs practiced, or that we care for moms, or the kinds of supplements that they need to take. And it all really stemmed from this one program that was studying this called the PREMI ACT. And so I got to work on that project. We renegotiated it. It was kind of like the perfect little conglomeration of things.
of the right pieces fitting together so that it got reintroduced and a year later I think it finally passed. And it was this amazing thing where I just looked at myself and I'm this is amazing. Everybody's working together. Yeah, I'm like, process amazing. Yeah.
JD (13:38.302)
It's not always like doggy dog, like getting it to his throat. like there are issues that most all Americans care about and we need bipartisan committees to help.
Santiago Gonzalez (13:47.732)
Exactly. And so at the time I had told myself, this is easy. Like, is, this is, you know, I could do this. This is really feel good.
JD (13:56.3)
Do you remember the math of like how many, how many infants and how many mothers you helped with this program?
Santiago Gonzalez (14:01.87)
I mean, I will have to go back and look and I'm sure I could probably Google it right now and figure it out, but it's certainly over the course of the past 20 years we've seen the number of premature births decrease. It's really, United States is really, really tough statistics when it comes to giving birth. so anyways, it's...
JD (14:27.392)
Right, because we're more like a middle income country, right, in terms of the outcomes here for that.
Santiago Gonzalez (14:30.316)
Yeah, it's wild. In terms of how mothers and pregnant women sort of experience that whole process, the US is pretty not the best place to do it. Most other high-income OECD countries operate way better for a whole host of reasons, but we wouldn't probably know any of those reasons if it wasn't for research like this.
So that was cool. So anyways, it gave me the bug and I decided this was where I wanted to stay and I wanted to do this for probably, potentially the rest of my life.
JD (15:09.472)
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious if in your soul searching, it ever came up like a trade off between focusing on national issues versus focusing on international issues regarding health, right? Both are important, but both have different levers to influence them. Right. Until recently, the U S maybe we still are, but at least before much more so U S was the largest funder of, of foreign aid and especially health support, especially health support.
For instance, for moms who would otherwise pass on HIV to their children. we had a podcast about that a few episodes ago and just the, I mean, the, the sheer numbers are shocking, right? The amount of good that the U S has done by funding, by funding PEPFAR, for instance, millions of lives, millions of lives, even the conservative estimates are extreme. when you think about that possibility for good, seeing all souls as equal and all human beings have equal dignity to God.
Did you ever work to prioritize global health issues alongside the US public health issues?
Santiago Gonzalez (16:18.38)
Yeah, yeah, it's a really, really good reflection on how important US leadership has been in the past couple of decades to address a lot of these concerns. The class I told you I took that got me interested in public health was a global health class. So that was truly sort of my conduit into the space. And I would say, because of what I got to do, I primarily
did work on sort of national federal US based programs for the most part, but a lot of my work also in particular was to do with migrant populations, so refugee groups and immigrants and I did get to work on a lot of global health kind of issues. I particularly worked on antimicrobial resistance for a really long time, which basically
We have antibiotics that have worked for many years, but because of the way that biochemistry functions, different types of infections get smarter. And so we don't actually have all the tools that we need to address sepsis or address kind of some of these things that are consistently, if left unaddressed, could very easily kill somebody.
JD (17:45.312)
Yes. It's one argument for eating less meat, right? Because a lot of these superbugs are bred on factory farms, right?
Santiago Gonzalez (17:46.272)
I think I got to. Yeah, yes.
Yeah, so I spent a lot of time doing that. That was probably like my global health project that we worked on.
JD (18:01.91)
Did you have any committees or bills that were connected to that?
Santiago Gonzalez (18:05.462)
Yeah, we worked primarily on a bill called the PASTEUR Act, which I don't think has been introduced this Congress. But basically what it would do is it was working with many drug manufacturers and creating a different kind of payment method for these drugs, essentially because antibiotics are so cheap. They're not a great investment for people to invest in because they're so cheap. They cost like two dollars.
JD (18:34.112)
Right. There's no pharmaceutical that's trying to innovate those. Right.
Santiago Gonzalez (18:35.086)
And so.
Santiago Gonzalez (18:39.05)
Yeah, so how do you create an incentive structure to innovate in that space?
JD (18:43.756)
Do you think like advanced market commitment works well?
Santiago Gonzalez (18:46.69)
Yeah, so the way that the bill structured, which it's actually like given our healthcare system incredibly complicated, but we create a sort of subscription model is kind of how it worked where a federal government could pay, let's say a billion dollars over three years and commit that they were going to give that money. And then the drug manufacturer would just supply the antibiotic as needed. And so
And so it was an incentive because you're actually creating a certainty in the marketplace for an investor to say, OK, if this company gets that subscription contract, then we know that we will have this amount of money flowing in over the course of the next three years. And so it was trying to do that. Again, like I said, because our health care system in the US is so
complicated. It actually is much more complicated, but you have places like Sweden and the UK and Japan actually implementing programs like this because it works. But their health care systems are probably a lot less complicated than the United States.
JD (19:56.96)
Yeah, that's, that's incredible. know some, some Christians in our community have worked on some economics research into this, looking at like how much we would value an advanced market commitment for, mRNA vaccines. think it was Brendan Tan. He has an, he has a paper on this that's estimated the value of it to be something like $60 billion. And if you look at like what it would actually cost, it's like a 10th or a hundredth of.
of benefits that you would get. Yeah, this seems to be like one of those spaces where everybody, regardless what side of the aisle they're on, disagree that the sheer calculus of it, the sheer, like what's at stake is just so high that the government's going to spend money on anything. Like spending money on things like mRNA or on antimicrobial resistance is like far and away the best possible investment and also protects our own citizens.
Santiago Gonzalez (20:49.282)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One would hope. I would say we are currently in the past couple of years living in a place where it's actually really difficult, I think, to get any big programs like that off the ground, particularly in the United States. But I think those kind of innovative ways of paying for things using these kinds of innovative payment structures is really important because right now the system just doesn't work as it should.
You have a lot of people that are sick when they shouldn't need to be because the system's just broken.
JD (21:26.048)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, here, this is sorry. I actually underestimated the amount. So Brendan Tan's paper found that in the case of advanced preparations for future pandemics, a program spending up to $60 billion upfront would expand capacity and $5 billion every year thereafter. And the present value
of that from preventing future losses from future pandemics would be nearly $18 trillion is what Brendan Tan and Rachel Glennerster from the CGD found. CGD, IMF, mean, just sheer incredible numbers. It's a really exciting space. Actually, if anyone listening is interested in that space and getting connected with fellowships or policy,
Santiago Gonzalez (22:15.437)
Yeah.
JD (22:22.932)
in that space. We'd love to hear from you and we'd love to introduce you to people. That's awesome. So in this connects back really to Jesus in New Testament teaching. Like for me, part of the reason I got involved in these impact spaces, in effective altruism, in really interested in policy was because I learned, I was never a political person. I wouldn't consider myself political now even still, but I knew that every person matters to God.
Right. Every person matters to God. And the fact that a mother, the fact that many mothers have to outlive their own children. Like I was at a fundraiser the other night where 70 % of the mothers that this, this charity ICM surveyed, had a child who had died. The majority of the women they were working with in ultra poor neighborhoods in the Philippines, the majority of them had buried one of their children. And the idea that.
that we have to live in a world where that's the majority for some communities. It's awful and every child matters to God and every child deserves the chance to grow up and know God and God's love for them. And that is impossible if they don't have the healthcare they need. So that to me and realizing the difference that I could make that like, with a yearly donation to effective charities, over the course of my lifetime, I could save busloads of kids, right?
that that's on offer, that's right there for us. Or that through policy could do even more good. I found that just so, so exciting. I'm curious for you, how did your faith in those values connect with this work in policy? Before we move on to maybe some examples in the Bible, maybe that's where we should jump to now. Did you see this as a step away from faith or pulling away from faith or is this kind of
affirming something you see in scripture and from biblical examples. Sorry, a lot of questions in one, but I'm very enthusiastic about this and I'm really keen to hear what you think.
Santiago Gonzalez (24:25.166)
It's really important, think. Yeah, it's really important. I mean, why appreciate the way that the positivity around what you're talking about is because I actually, think that you actually have to fight for this kind of view about the fact that all people, that all these kids matter, that like, these are not just numbers. These are not just statistics. They're not just like,
you know, over a third of kid, of moms have to do it.
JD (24:59.04)
I mean, the numbers are, it's like 15,000 kids a day, I think. It's like four or five million kids a year die from mostly preventable diseases. Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (25:08.052)
Exactly. I think it can so easily become that, and this is something that I fought against in politics, just like my own mental ability to always be connecting it back to a face or a name was so important to me because, and it gets to your point of, I don't think I could have worked in politics or worked in this space if it wasn't because I felt like I was called to and because it was a place that I feel like the Lord had me.
in the season that he has had me, including sort of what I'm doing now, which is, I think every single person is in a certain kind of environment where they can either choose to be obedient to operate in the way of Jesus in where they're at, or they can choose to ignore that voice and do the same exact job, but not in a way that is in the way of Jesus. And I think you'll have
Christians who are going to be, and I felt this poll, like it was, am I going to do these jobs? It's really like, I know that we've talked about this in the past, not trying to not be super political, like in my job and even now, like I am incredibly political. And so how do you do that in a way that both honors other humans and then
fact that they're made in the image of God and that God loves them even if they're my opponent or whatever that it is politically, but doing things in a way where I'm also following in the way of Jesus and trying to do my best to do that. And it is extremely difficult, but to your point, which I think we can talk about more, there's plentiful examples in the scriptures of individual
JD (27:01.6)
Yeah. What are some of the biblical examples that inspire you that motivate you?
Santiago Gonzalez (27:05.547)
Yeah, yeah. I think one of my favorites is the story of Joseph and the fact that he was, what we might say nowadays, was trafficked and he found himself in a home.
JD (27:22.272)
Wait a second, Santi. I'm going to go back one second and I'm going to ask you in a way that's very clipable for social media, because this will do really well on social media. So Santi, you have a successful career on the Senate, prioritizing bills that serve the least of these. What are some biblical examples of Christians or people of faith working in policy that inspire you?
Santiago Gonzalez (27:27.03)
Okay.
Santiago Gonzalez (27:44.076)
Yeah, I think that one of my favorites that I thought about and people reminded me over the years is the story of Joseph. And Joseph was somebody who we would probably consider now as having been trafficked. He was brought to a place that was not his home. I mean, he was serving a kingdom and in a place that was certainly not following the same God as he was, but he worked really, really hard. He
eventually just became an expert in so many kinds of systems that the kingdom needed solutions for. And he had these incredible systems of how to feed the people. we hear about how he fed in famine and he was leading that entire effort. Like I'm thinking about right now, there's, millions and millions of Americans who are losing their health support and are there for food support and food assistance. And, we're in the middle of a
of a government shutdown and people could be even more people could be losing that. And so that's just like a distinction towards this. But Joseph really became a pro at what he was doing, but he always had his relationship with Yahweh at the forefront. And we didn't necessarily...
Like we saw that in the way that he operated in the kingdom that he was working under but then you also saw that in the way that he operated in his family and with his community and so I think like that is the example that I always think about when I think about what it means to serve in politics under a king in a kingdom that is not necessarily, you know, we say it's under God, but you know, that's
JD (29:28.364)
Pharaoh is not exactly like a super Christ-like person, right? And you know the incredible thing about Joseph too, and what I love about it as well, as you pointed out, it's not just him serving the nation and the world, right? The whole area, the whole region, welcoming foreigners and refugees, but it's also providing for his family, right? It's doing both at the same time. And I think it shows you don't have to trade off caring and providing for your family to care about the needs of the world, to also dedicate your vocation to the needs of the world.
Santiago Gonzalez (29:32.512)
Exactly.
Santiago Gonzalez (29:56.3)
Right, right. And just to complicate it even further, like it's a family that, you know, was the group of people that led to his enslavement. And so I think it's just a good reminder, whether you look at him, whether you look at the story of Daniel, who was like working for, again, a king who was enslaving his people, or you look at Esther, or you look at any of these people who...
took the opportunity that they had and they imagined a better world for not just their people, but for the world. Like they were not exclusively thinking about how can my people group and everybody that looks like me benefit from my leadership. They consistently looked at how can I better the world around me and usher in the way that God envisioned this world.
and how can I be the conduit to make that happen? And I think that it's really important that when they were in incredibly high stress situations, like Joseph was accused of horrible things by Pharaoh's wife, right? Like that story is totally not told enough or the serious of it is not explained enough, but the way that he operated in integrity and in faith, like that's the kind of person that I think we should be if we're Christians and working.
in the political space, which is you're not doing the things that are easy, you're actually doing the hard things and you're probably taking a lot of flack for it, but because you can envision a better world for not just your side, but for the rest of the world, like for everybody, that's the most important thing. I can't, nobody can do that well unless they have an extremely...
you I'm reading Dallas Willard right now in small group, like you have to have a deeply formed life, like you have to be formed in the image in the way of Jesus. Otherwise, it's going to be really easy to fall off. And of course, there's like so many mistakes I've made along the way, and so many times where I've accidentally prioritized the wrong thing. But I think I think I'm incredibly
Santiago Gonzalez (32:17.09)
blessed to have a community around me that holds me accountable as well and pushes me towards making sure I do my best.
JD (32:20.236)
Santee, you're a Christian who's worked high up in the US Senate. How is it that Christians can follow the way of Jesus in their political work? Like, and what does that look like concretely? Does that mean like, never lying? Does that mean like, being nice to people at work? Like, and what are really the most important things, right? Because like some seem like really simple things. yeah, just being nice. But others seem like really costly, right? Like, if you can never like tell
a misleading thing that might not be directly a lie, but you never want to be misleading. Like that's something that would borrow you from a lot of politics and a lot of political arenas. So how would you sum up in as few dimensions as possible what differentiates the way of Jesus in politics versus the way of the world?
Santiago Gonzalez (33:03.468)
Yeah, I wish that I could look at a pattern that worked for everybody, to be honest. think the way that Congress is structured is it's like a million little fiefdoms, or 535 to be exact, little fiefdoms that all operate very differently.
Ultimately, the very first thing, and I did not prioritize this for a lot of the beginning of my career, but it was like my own personal formation and my own personal disciplines. Was the first thing I was going to do is wake up and read Politico or Semaphore or Punchbowl, which those of you who work in politics, you know, those are a necessity for you to read. Or was the first thing that I was going to do is wake up and read a Psalm or a proverb. Like, it sounds like
Like that's too simple, but it is as simple as that because if I am not, if I'm not creating a framework and a filter by which I'm viewing everything I'm doing at the beginning of my day through the lens of scriptures, then it's going to be easy for me to go into a room and lie. It'll be really easy for me to go in and like withhold information. It's gonna be really easy for me to,
to cast blame on someone else or on the other side when it might be my fault. But then I also will say, I think that one of the things that I learned also is if I was going to be a Christian in this space, I was also going to be the best at the job, which meant that I worked the hardest and I was going to do it in a way that was the absolute.
best. And so I could go into rooms where we're negotiating things. I could be advising on how we're going to externally and I would go toe to toe. And I'm not saying that you can't be nice when you do that. And I think you can be. But I would hope that people were really nervous when they had to go into negotiation with me because they knew I was going to be the best prepared and that I was going to win. so and so I think and then understanding at points when like
Santiago Gonzalez (35:29.036)
Winning was not the primary goal, but loving the other was the goal. And needing to have the wisdom to make the distinction between those two is.
JD (35:37.846)
Hmm. Sondia, I'm going to give you five examples of things you might have to do if working in politics or policy. And I want you to share, briefly, for each of these, how you can do it as a Christian faithfully and impactfully. Okay. Okay. So the first thing is, making deals in a very competitive situation. Should you ever lie or at least withhold the truth or, or tell something that's misleading? Like can a Christian ever do that?
What do you say? there ever like a white line or a white lie that's permissible? what's your thoughts?
Santiago Gonzalez (36:14.572)
Yeah, I think that you should never lie. I think that's crazy because then you're operating from a deficit immediately. And I don't think that honors. I think that you can always frame things in a way that makes you have the strongest argument. And so I think there's always going to be a way to approach things. In a negotiation, you're not always giving everything away, which means withholding certain information or potentially not
not giving certain things or not holding, like I said, not holding pieces of or holding certain pieces of information until absolutely necessary. But I don't think that you need to be misleading or lie to do well in negotiations.
JD (37:00.076)
Okay, number two, networking. DC is a place where everybody wants to know what other people are doing. It's the first thing that people ask each other, right? It's how we started this interview. like, well, what do you do? Very DC. Sometimes that feels a bit like slimy or transactional. Should Christians try to make friendships with people for the primary purpose of scoring some kind of political deal, if it's for an important cause? How do you approach those relationships, being authentic and honest, but also...
having something to gain.
Santiago Gonzalez (37:30.988)
Yeah, it's all about relationality. Like it is, do I actually like love and care about this person and care about their lives? Like I always had a rule where if I knew that I was eventually gonna need something from somebody, like I really didn't want that to be the basis of our relationship at all. And so I, you know, would ask about their pet. I would ask about their kid. I would ask about their parent.
So you'll find me in my conversations like I don't, I don't.
JD (38:01.964)
So that's you giving to them, is being friendly, right? It still feels a bit transactional though, if you're doing that because you need something from them, right?
Santiago Gonzalez (38:05.257)
Yeah, I mean, I
Santiago Gonzalez (38:09.794)
Yeah, I think what's interesting is
JD (38:12.544)
Can you just be honest and be like, own the dependence, right? And there's a dignity in being dependent. We're all dependent on God. And in the political arena, we're going to depend on certain institutions, fief them with power. And they know that we need them. And maybe we don't need to say it outright in the first meeting, but the fact that we're coming to them and asking about their dog, maybe it's sort of like honoring and bowing down in a sense, respecting the position.
Santiago Gonzalez (38:36.876)
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think what I'll say is like my relationships and my friendships are beyond what I need or not. Like, think like if there's somebody that I just need something from, I'm usually pretty like, hey, like, I'm just curious, like what this, you know, what X, Y, Z is like, or can you do this or not? Like, I think there's that. But I would say like the hardest part that I know that people
feel about in politics is that people are inauthentic and they don't actually care about you. And so it is an internal question that I have to ask myself. Do I actually care about this person? And am I going to be praying for them, follow up with them? Am I going to be doing that just as a person? I meet a lot of really, really interesting people. And I think it's a great part of what I get to do.
But I also, yeah, to your point, it is this internal question that I have to ask myself and I should ask myself, because I want to be a good friend and reliable with anybody I meet, not just, you know. But it's a really good question to push, because I think it can come off as an authentic, but I think the follow-up and the relationality of, is this going to be a long-lasting friendship is important.
JD (40:00.3)
Okay, related to that, my third question here is about lobbying. And there's a lot of policy people, staffers that will become revolving door lobbyists, right? They go from the Hill working for a Senator Republican to a lobby firm for a particular issue or maybe a broad caucus of issues. It seems like sometimes lobbying is more about relationships and contacts and finding who has what who needs.
But sometimes money is involved, right? Sometimes, you know, it's never in writing or explicitly set, but like the tacit understanding is like, money will be needed to donate to a specific person to advance a specific issue. And to a point where it seems like more money in politics and like, frankly, like legal bribing. So how should Christians approach that space? And is there ever, you know, would you ever say it's permissible?
for there to be legal bribing for an issue that's just so important, right? Like if it's a matter of like some extremely important bill serving the like poorest of the poor or like the least of these, is that ever permissible or how do you think about that?
Santiago Gonzalez (41:10.102)
Yeah, it's gosh, that's that's like the real real question that I know.
JD (41:13.772)
You're not representing the views of where you currently work or formerly work. It's all your opinion. Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (41:19.03)
And I think here's what I'll say. The system in general writ large, is ethically questionable, whether it's legal or not. There's these questions on some of these really hot topics, whether it's abortion or immigration or this, where it's like, what is legal and what is allowed in statute doesn't necessarily mean it's an ethically right thing.
And so I think those are the types of issues and challenges that I always thought through. And so on this piece in particular, I would say, is extremely dependent on the person. Like, there are going to be people who are going to donate even for the best cause in the world, just so they can get their foot in the door.
And sometimes it's the only way that you can get the foot in the door. I think I would say like me personally, I'm actually like working with some of my colleagues to figure out like, what does this actually look like for me? Like, how do I do this in a way that is the best, not only just for like what, yeah, we want to accomplish, but also like I have these like broad visions for how I want to see the world. And like, it takes money to...
make big changes. like maybe money is necessary. I haven't like gone to the final answer on this, JD. Like I'm trying to like figure that out. But I think it's an interesting challenge. And I think that generally things are not as black and white. And so, yeah, so I think, yeah, you're just catching me at a time where I'm like in the process of thinking about what that looks like for my own self personally.
And I think I'm still on that journey.
JD (43:16.438)
So my fourth question for you as a Christian who's worked higher from the Senate about careers in politics and policy is where do folks in that space get spiritual advising? And like do churches in DC, especially where so much of this activity is, do they really address some of these hot button issues that are heavy on the hearts and minds of staffers? Like, is this something that comes up in Bible studies or like really where? Curious what you think.
Santiago Gonzalez (43:43.214)
Yeah, there's a couple really great organizations that host Bible studies on the Hill and they have like faith mentorship and they're trying to work with policymakers to understand that and I think that that is really important work. I would go to my pastor.
and my small group and the community people around me. Even though it is my... It is a job. It is that. And so just like somebody who might be working at a law firm or just somebody that might be working at a nonprofit or as a doctor or any of that might want to bring some of these specific challenges forward, I think everybody should have a community around them where they can...
they can work through these questions. In DC specifically, there are some churches that do great about this, and there are some churches that don't talk about it at all.
JD (44:46.732)
Can you name any in particular resources, communities you found really helpful and spiritually edifying and grounding?
Santiago Gonzalez (44:50.594)
Cool. Yeah, mean, honestly, obviously, like we both go to Union City Church and I think it has become a space where I can wrestle with a lot of these kinds of questions with our pastor and get challenged, get pushback. Like I specifically offer up myself to sort of process different kinds of things and get pushback.
And I think that as Christians, we have to seek that out. Like it's not just gonna be come and like laid at the feet of my like me because I'm a Christian and everybody knows it. Like I think we have to seek it out. And I think that there are folks that work in this space. I'd say, I think he was on your podcast as well, but Michael Wear is doing some amazing work. I'm trying with an organization called CCPL, I'm trying to...
make sure that Christians feel really encouraged and supported when they're doing public service work. People like Justin Giboney and others who sort of have worked in politics and faith I think are really
JD (46:01.388)
Do you have thoughts on the National Prayer Breakfast and to what extent that does or doesn't address some of these thorny questions or spiritual needs?
Santiago Gonzalez (46:09.646)
boy. My thoughts on the National Prayer Breakfast is actually, I actually think that's more about money to be quite honest with you. I think a lot of people that are funding that can sometimes, it's not everybody and so I don't want to disparage the whole movement, but I've really found that the people who run the
JD (46:22.55)
Say more.
Santiago Gonzalez (46:38.4)
run that can sometimes have differing end goals.
JD (46:44.204)
Do you have like a concrete example of that?
Santiago Gonzalez (46:46.688)
Yeah, I mean, think there are some individuals who really do meet and pray. And there's some sidebar events outside of the prayer breakfast and at the prayer breakfast where they really are sitting and praying together and trying to seek these things out. And there's other people who both on the left and the right who use the prayer breakfast to get what they need politically. Yeah.
JD (47:10.582)
So it's like a networking thing, yeah. So it's where the prayer isn't happening that there's a problem, is what I'm hearing. Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (47:15.522)
No, I think we should be praying.
JD (47:19.528)
You really walk the walk. listeners, Santi leads the prayer room, this weekly prayer meeting at 6.30 AM at our church and is up there on the keys and leading us in prayer and worship every week. So you really do walk the walk.
Santiago Gonzalez (47:33.696)
Yeah, think prayer is the most important thing and I think that honest prayer without much of these potential complicating factors like money is probably a better way to do it and so that can sometimes be my challenge. I should tell you that the organization that organizes the whole thing, some of the powers that be around it, is actually the reason why I came to DC the very first time. It's why I wanted to...
JD (48:02.078)
wow.
Santiago Gonzalez (48:02.582)
even discover GW. So it's really amazing.
JD (48:05.686)
So you're saying like it roped you into these issues or?
Santiago Gonzalez (48:08.938)
It roped me into like, understand that DC was a place that I could be.
JD (48:14.838)
You mean just like the presence of prayerful people or prayerful people?
Santiago Gonzalez (48:18.254)
The organization that sort of like organizes it has programs that bring young people into this space. so that was, I kind of accidentally fell into it, but that's the very first time I came to DC, sort of through there.
JD (48:38.028)
It's identified as more center right, is that right?
Santiago Gonzalez (48:41.74)
I think you'll find both but probably more center-right. Yeah. It totally depends on who you're talking to. I found who's involved with it.
JD (48:45.824)
JD (48:52.172)
So my fifth question for you as a Christian who's worked high up in the Senate is how do you balance the long hours, right? Like 70 hour plus weeks you were working with other sacred commitments in your life to being active in church, to serving for your family and being a good friend. Any advice for Christians who are wondering how to juggle really important needs of the world advising senators in the world's most powerful country with being a good friend?
Santiago Gonzalez (49:17.804)
Yeah, a couple things. think Sabbath is a command and incredibly important, and I would hope that if you're a Christian working in this space that that is a priority and that you rest and take care of and really remain comfortable with not working all seven days a week. I know that's not possible for everybody, but it could look like that in some sort of way.
I was extremely regimented, I still kind of am, but that was the only way that I could make it function. Like, I would wake up at a certain hour, have really high standards and strict standards for my team to make sure that they were communicating with me at certain points in certain ways, and then would make sure I got my sleep. But it was regimented in the sense of like exercise as well as spiritual discipline.
you know, I wasn't, I was doing my best. was not 100 % of the time, but I would say 90 % of the time. I wasn't, like I said, opening an email before I opened the scriptures. And so I think even in the highest levels, that became more and more important because as stress happens and as all of that happens, I think the greater the importance is to spend time with Jesus. And so.
I would say that that is the best way to do it. And then also, just have people who are on the same walk with you. I knew other Christians who were working in these spaces, and there was a lot of need for encouragement, and we would. And so I think, you know, being a part of community is really, really, really crucial as well.
JD (51:04.788)
Okay, as we wrap up, have a couple bullet questions, hopefully like rapid fire question rapid fire answer for you. Is that all right? One might be a slightly longer answer, but I was surprised from an account of a friend of mine who's a future discerning ordination to the priesthood.
Santiago Gonzalez (51:09.71)
Yep.
JD (51:21.43)
who had served in a parish, prominent parish in Georgetown with someone who they recall loved Jesus, knew their scripture super well, would correct them actually if they cited the Psalms wrong, but graciously and would smile with the correction. And how this friend of mine was dumbfounded when they learned that this person was actually like the senior military advisor to George W. Bush and it like explicitly recommended, explicitly recommended like a preeminent strike.
on Afghanistan for weapons of mass destruction. And I think if I recall correctly, even a nuclear strike. So like, what do you do in these cases with Christians who are really faithful, like genuinely faithful in other Bibles as well, but seem to be mistaken on some of the like technicalities of what good policy might look like?
Like, is that surprising to you that like someone who knows Jesus well would be so technically mistaken?
Santiago Gonzalez (52:19.262)
No, because I think at the time that was actually the most easy thing to recommend, or maybe not the easiest thing to recommend, but it was a thing to recommend at the time based on culture, American culture and its obsession with violence, which can be a whole topic for a whole other day.
But no, it's not surprising at all. think what I would say is that like the United States and a lot of places is...
There's a level of maturity. I would say I have no reason to believe that somebody who might have recommended that isn't a Christian and doesn't love Jesus. That's not for me to decide. It can't be for me to decide. What I think I can offer is the idea that it is really important for us to grow in maturity in our faith and to recognize that any decision we make, if we can't put it up against the scriptures and see that it...
we see the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us, which is like love, joy, peace.
JD (53:39.67)
Do think that he in good conscience could make a policy recommendation like that? Loving Jesus and
Santiago Gonzalez (53:44.78)
Yeah, because I think our conscience can sometimes totally, totally, you know...
JD (53:49.718)
So you think that's a product of a slightly warped conscience? Slightly warped conscience. Okay.
Santiago Gonzalez (53:53.542)
I think it's a product of a mind that has not yet been transformed.
JD (54:00.012)
So do you think that when Christians have technical policy mistakes that it's always from a slightly warped conscience where they maybe think they're doing, you know, when they're not willfully even wrong, but they're doing something that they think is correct, but it's, it's a conscience problem. It's not an information or mind problem.
Santiago Gonzalez (54:13.858)
Yeah, always is tough for me to agree with just because it's not, I think that there's like a wide range of things.
JD (54:19.296)
Like, couldn't we live in a world where like, well-meaning Christians sometimes disagree with each other on things, but like, the way to resolve the disagreement is like, more like technical information or morally relevant facts instead of more prayer? Like that's possible, right? I think people should definitely pray more, right? That's definitely a big problem. But like, if we had more morally relevant information, that also seems like a really important thing.
Santiago Gonzalez (54:35.342)
Yeah.
Santiago Gonzalez (54:41.344)
Yeah, I I think I told you I was reading Dallas Willard earlier and he talks about how we need to form our way of thinking and that logic is part of it and he talks about how this inventor who wrote all these beautiful Psalms also like created these really like lightbulb or something like that. I'm gonna have to go back and look, it's Renovation of the Heart.
We can fact check me later. But talking about how logic is actually really important. So yeah, I think that's important factor, but I think it's all of the above. We are not just our thoughts and we're not just our spirit. Our souls are all of that. so I think some people are more tuned to the facts and are more affected by if you walk me through something, then I will get there. Whereas others are going to be more...
prone to emotional and spiritual kinds of things. I think people are often surprised, frankly, at me being super scientifically minded because I'm also an artist and I like music and prayer. And they're like, that's kind of crazy that how does those two things fit together? And in my mind, I'm like, well, that's just the fullness of who I am. But I think it's super complicated, JD, because I just, and it is a source of my frustration.
as you can imagine, because I'm like how, I don't know if you read Pope Francis' biography, but he talks about how he, in his forming of his view on nuclear weapons, it was because he was mentored at one point by the priest who oversaw Hiroshima, who oversaw the parish in Hiroshima, when the United States, like, you know, dropped the bomb on them.
And I'm sitting there just being like, of course Pope Francis felt that way. Like, look who mentored him and who taught him about this issue. I don't know who this person in Georgetown is, and I don't know like what his formation has looked like. And so I don't think it's, you know, yes, I think you can come to different conclusions based on how you were formed. And that does it.
Santiago Gonzalez (57:02.542)
I think there's like ultimate truth, which is like, am I to like actually judge? Because I feel like I probably get things wrong all the time too, but I really often try to just seek what the right thing is.
JD (57:17.324)
Santee, we want to respect your time, but thank you so much for sharing these insights. And if you're listening and you want a career that tackles some of the world's most pressing problems and you want to do it with a career in politics, policy, work on the Hill, we have a report on our website. You can go to our resources tab and then to career profiles into our congressional staffer report, where it's an in-depth guide for this career path. And if you want to meet Santee, come to Union City Church.
or come to our conference that we're doing where Santi will be leading prayer. We welcome you to that. Santi, thank you so much for coming.
Santiago Gonzalez (57:51.128)
Thanks for having me.
