David Johnson: Planting Churches for $258 With Indigenous Missions #23
Should Christians in the West redirect their giving towards where the gospel is least reached? Can business experience be the very thing that equips someone for the mission field? JD explores this theme with David Johnson, co-founder of Doulos Partners, a non-profit that vets and funds six world-class indigenous church planting movements across nearly 200 countries. David spent 14.5 years in business before serving as executive pastor at Hunter Street Church, Birmingham, and lead pastor at Dayspring Baptist Church, Mobile. He then co-founded Doulos which has put over $36 million in the field in a single year, planting churches in villages that had none, for as little as $258 each.
Articles, Scripture, organisations, and other media discussed in this episode
Doulos Partners - David's organisation, funding indigenous church planting movements globally through six vetted strategic partners.
Big Life Ministry - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners.
Door International - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners; the largest ministry in the world to the Deaf.
New Generations - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners, based in Nashville, Tennessee.
The Timothy Initiative - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners, based in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Every Home for Christ - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners, based in Colorado Springs.
E3 Partners - One of Doulos’ six strategic partners, based in Dallas, Texas.
Coalition of the Willing - A coalition of 25 sending agencies collaborating and sharing field data.
iShare - Software used by the Coalition of the Willing to map villages and track gospel gaps.
Business as Mission (BAM) - Organisation integrating business and missionary work.
Gospel Patrons - Concept of Christian business leaders funding missions work.
ECFA - Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability; used as a vetting benchmark.
Mentioned Scripture
1 Corinthians 3:6 - “I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.”
Acts 1:8 - “ But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Matthew 16:18 - “And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church,and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.”
Episode Highlights:
God Wastes Nothing
"Starting Doulos from scratch with 14 and a half years of business experience and 20 years of ministry experience to come to this collision. God wastes nothing. And so it was just really a perfect storm for us to start Doulous."
A Sobering Responsibility
"I know I'm going to stand before the Lord and give an account for every penny, every mile, every word, every part. I'm going to stand before the Lord. Let me tell you, that's a sobering responsibility."
Choosing Wisely
"We've had probably close to 6,000 partner requests in 17 and a half years. And so far to this point, we've said yes to nine. So we believe in heavily vetting."
Why Christians Aren't Giving Globally
"We live in an affluent culture that's all about us and it's all about building wealth and it's a house, a lake house, a beach house. It's a country club membership. It's saying, hey, we've arrived because we have all this stuff and we're having to unlearn that and we're having to unteach that."
Not Responsible for the Outcomes
"I'm only responsible for being obedient, for following Him, to working as unto Him, and then trusting Him with the outcome."
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JD (00:00.216)
So people will know a bit about you from the start here. Great. David, thanks so much for coming on.
David Johnson (00:08.857)
That's my privilege. Thanks for having me.
JD (00:11.66)
So why don't you take just a minute or two to share a little bit more about yourself, what it is you do to impact the world, and how you got here.
David Johnson (00:20.517)
Yeah, so I was a very fortunate man, I was raised in a Christian home with a mom who read the Bible through every year — every discussion with my mom was a biblical discussion. It was an incredible experience. Met my wife in high school, was probably the godliest teenager I had ever met. And so God led her to me. We've been married — it'll be 50 years on October 25th.
We have two incredible kids, both of whom are involved in Doulos on our team. Five grandkids — ranging from 18 to 10 — and they're all believers. It's just incredible the way that the Lord has allowed this movement in the family. And to be the patriarch of our family now is really an exciting thing that I love to do. And I love taking my grandkids to the mission field, which has also been awesome. So hey, I was a business guy for 14 and a half years. I love, love, love the business environment and the competition of business. It was a very hard thing to leave. So I like to tell people that in God's sense of humor, He called me out of business to be a pastor.
JD (01:39.33)
And what was your business context? Were you managing a company?
David Johnson (01:42.567)
Yep. So we actually owned a dental laboratory. We did work in seven states. We had about 25 employees. And then we sold that. I went to work in the coffee company — with Hillenbrook's Coffee Company. And so I ran their operations in Savannah, Georgia. I love the whole business thing. I have a double major — or two classes short of a double major — in business and religion. So it's been really cool to have this collision with Doulos, and starting Doulos from scratch with 14 and a half years of business experience and 20 years of ministry experience come together. I mean, God wastes nothing. And so it was just really a perfect storm for us to start Doulos, because we certainly lead and we do everything we can to steward what God's entrusted us — running what we consider the most important business on the planet.
And yet we realise we're doing ministry at the same time.
JD (02:44.864)
And you carried a lot of responsibility in your local church, right? It was not a small congregation and you were the lead pastor there. Just share maybe for a minute about your ministry experience there.
David Johnson (02:55.963)
Yeah. So I was actually the executive pastor at Hunter Street in Birmingham for eight years. And we grew from about 800 to about 4,000 in that period, putting in the field from about $800,000 to about $10 million a year. And so that was an incredible context where I got to use my teaching ability and my business sense together.
And then God called me to be the lead pastor at Dayspring Baptist Church in Mobile, where I got to do the teaching probably 45 weeks a year. I was teaching in three Sunday morning services and the church grew from about 350 when I arrived to about 1,800. We were doing three services. And one of the things that was really cool about that, JD — the average age of our church was 32. So we had a lot of young college students, young single adults, young leaders. And that was just a blast for me. And that's even carried on to today as I love pouring into the next generation.
JD (04:06.222)
Well, that's probably about or maybe a bit above the average age of this podcast listener. So yeah, there's probably some resonance there. But you had a pretty rough awakening in the middle of the night one night, right? It set your path different, set a new course for you. Share a bit about the story of that and how Doulos got started.
David Johnson (04:27.047)
Yeah, it's so crazy. You know, oftentimes we move because we're running away from something. We have trouble with where we are. Things are going difficult. And then we decide to leave. That was not my case. I could not have been happier where I was at Dayspring, with what God was doing there. But you're right. He woke me up at 2:32 a.m. in October of 2008 and basically said, I have a new assignment for you. And it's interesting — He spoke to me in business terms. He said, I want to move you from micro to macro ministry. And He gave me four words: give, go, ask, expect. You give, you go, you ask others expectantly to join you in the work — which then I had no idea what the work was.
And yet I've got two guys — there were three of us that co-founded Doulos together — Scott Grosky and Wayne Myrick. And so I began to talk to those guys. They had a foundation actually called the Doulos Foundation. And so it was really crazy because God had given me this word of Doulos. And so we kind of came together and our deal was that we were so Western, JD, in our socialisation about missions.
You know, we had people that God would raise up out of our congregations. They would sell everything. They would go to the field. They would learn the language. And I have such an amazing respect for men and women who leave everything to go to the field. But it was like God was giving the three of us this lane that He wanted us to run in. And it had all to do with empowering the indigenous.
As much as we love Western missionaries, it was like there was this call of God for us to come alongside the indigenous Cubans, regional Cubans, Africans, regional Africans, Indians, regional Indians. They know the language, they know their culture. I mean, I'm a six-foot-four Caucasian, and there are places in the world where that makes it very difficult or impossible for me to go. And so our whole calling of God was to
David Johnson (06:46.311)
come alongside the indigenous and do everything we could to provide resources for them to reach their own countrymen with the gospel. And that's really how we started, and that's what we do today too.
JD (06:57.87)
And so you're at quite a large size now, right? Something like $10 million a year is going through Doulos, thanks to your generous partners, towards your partner organisations — six organisations that you've vetted and spotlight as outstanding giving opportunities for catalysing missions work done by indigenous peoples all around the world. Is that right?
David Johnson (07:20.295)
That's right. So in 2024, we put $10.2 million in the field through our strategic partners. And yet — this is almost hard for me to even get my arms around — our fiscal year ends September 30th, which is just a couple of weeks away. And God has allowed us to put $36 million in the field this year, which is just...
JD (07:44.738)
Wow, that's incredible.
David Johnson (07:48.751)
And really, JD, we didn't do anything different — just still telling the story, asking people to pray. And we may get none of that next year. I mean, we don't know. But it's just been an amazing two years watching people dial into Doulos processes, our vetting, the way that works. And people are going, we see the value that Doulos brings to the table, because in essence we're working like their ambassador
JD (08:17.166)
Right, right. Yeah. And I want to dig into that, especially the vetting, because a lot of listeners on this podcast are familiar with the rationale for giving to the 10/40 Window or to supporting global church planting. They understand the great imbalance, right? That something like 96% of missions dollars go towards where very few of the unreached are — here in the US and in the West — right? But most of the unreached are in the 10/40 Window, in Northern Africa, throughout
David Johnson (08:17.649)
for their funds.
JD (08:46.548)
Asia. And these are places that get very little funding, very little support. And one of the few things that we do have to offer from our vantage point in the West is our funds. That's kind of our comparative advantage in some sense. So there's a very simple case, right, that if we're trying to naively optimise for reaching the lost and for making good use of our talents, that money should be going abroad — going to the least of these, going also to global church planters or discipleship-making movements, et cetera. I think a lot of listeners are cool with that, understand that, agree with that in principle. I think in practice, a lot of people wonder: how do I know if the indigenous missions efforts are aligned with my understanding of the gospel, are using the funds faithfully, and that these churches being planted are really representing the body of Christ in a faithful way?
I'll pass the baton to you — maybe at a high level, how would you describe your vetting process? What is it that organisations go through before they get the Duloss stamp of approval?
David Johnson (09:55.643)
Yeah. So on average, it's about a 15-month process. We call it our three R's of vetting. The first one is reputation. And let me just say, JD — we've had probably close to 6,000 partner requests in 17 and a half years. And so far, to this point, we've said yes to nine. So we believe in heavily vetting.
We have a very clear direction of who we are and what God's called us to do, which is evangelism, discipleship, and church planting. And what's at the end of our runway is a healthy, sustainable, reproducing church — because the Bible says the only thing the gates of hell will not prevail against is His church. And so we believe very strongly in the church and working through the church. And so it's very important when we're entrusted with God's resources. I mean, literally — I'll just say for me personally — I know I'm going to stand before the Lord and give an account for every penny, every mile, every word, every part. I'm going to stand before the Lord. Let me tell you, that's a sobering responsibility. And so for us, we look at the reputation of that ministry. If we don't know that ministry, there are only two or three, maybe four calls that we can make with other people we have relationships with.
And why would we even enter into a potential partner process with someone whose reputation is not stellar? We're just not going to do that. The second R, which is very important to us, is relationship — because we're really looking for like-minded people that we can align with, that we can have deep relationships with. Because we kind of look at these like a marriage. I mean, we're marrying our organisations together. And so the relationships matter. Now, while the relationship-building is going on — which is what takes the longest amount of time — there's a lot of data collection happening. So two years of audited financial statements, two years of field reporting. Do you have whistleblower policies in place? We gather their 990s.
David Johnson (12:20.251)
We look at everything. Are you an ECFA member? What are your GuideStar ratings? We look at everything. And we're even looking at whether you're allowing other third-party organisations to vet you. Because if you're close-fisted, that's kind of a flag for us.
So we're building their file — we have like a 24 or 25-bullet cover sheet that we send to a potential partner, with all those things on it that I was just talking about. We start building their file while we're building the relationships. The final R — and I'm sorry, did you want to ask something? Yeah. So the final R —
JD (13:07.278)
No, continue.
David Johnson (13:12.845)
which is also extremely important, is reporting. So we're obviously looking at their reporting that they're giving us domestically. What are your processes? Is the same person creating the outcome the same person who's verifying the outcome? Verifying outcomes are hugely important to us. And that's one of the things that we've worked very hard on with our partners to help them continue to raise their level of verification. So if there's a church planter in Uganda with one of our partners that says, hey, we planted eight churches this year — I want to know when the verification team is going in, and when are they going to actually have that church planter take them to those eight churches to make sure they're actually there? Or at least a sampling — maybe it's a 50% sampling — but there is at least a sampling that says, hey, when you turn in a report, someone's coming to verify those numbers. And I will say this too — one of the things I'm very excited about with our partners is they're starting to actually hire outside organisations who are going to the field and looking at their reporting processes, giving them just like an audit.
What does your management letter look like on your actual field reporting? So we work very hard at that. Now, the last step of the vetting process is for us to actually go to the field. We do not write a check to that organisation until that vetting process is completed. We go to the field to make sure that what we see in the field is what we've heard domestically and seen in reports. Let me tell you, I've been to the field closing in on probably 200 times. I've gotten to where, JD, I don't even have to ask many questions — I can just observe and ask myself, do I see what has been communicated to me? And the rest of our team can do that as well. Now, I do occasionally get asked the question —
David Johnson (15:35.143)
is that one and done? And the answer to that is no. So we do quarterly vetting meetings with every partner every year — that's 24 vetting meetings that we have with our six partners. And we go to the field every year with every partner. I just got back from Togo just two weeks ago — that was a vetting trip for one of our six partners. And
I saw exactly what I expected, and I had just been with them the year before in Sri Lanka. I went, wow — I see consistency between their programmes. What they're doing in Togo is consistent with what I saw in Sri Lanka, which is a wonderful thing to see in a partner.
JD (16:21.016)
So there are six partners — maybe you could list them briefly.
David Johnson (16:25.029)
Yeah, I'd be glad to. Big Life Ministry is one of our — I guess our longest-tenured partner. Door International, they're in Zeeland, Michigan — they're the largest ministry in the world to the Deaf. They're one of our partners. New Generations — also one of our partners, out of Nashville, Tennessee. The Timothy Initiative out of Charlotte, North Carolina.
Also, Every Home for Christ out of Colorado Springs. Also, E3 Partners out of Dallas, Texas. Those are our six partners.
JD (17:05.11)
Some Southern strongholds among these senders. So you have an organisation that reaches out to you, they fill out this potential partnership vetting document that you have on your website. And some of these things, like you mentioned, are kind of categorical — they either have it or they don't. They're either a 501(c)(3) or they're not. They're either aligned with the ECFA or they're not.
David Johnson (17:08.784)
Yeah, that's right.
JD (17:29.912)
But some of these are a bit fuzzier, right? The stories that they have, the kind of overview, what they're doing, how God's at work in their ministry, and their reporting, right? There's a huge range of different kinds of reporting. Some of them are corroborated by third-party vetters, some of them aren't. And then of that vetting, there's a big range of kinds of vetting, right? Some of it is just kind of pre-post — you know, we did this survey in this area, or we looked up the national rate of how many people are Christian.
And then we checked afterwards and there were more Christians after we went in, so we claimed credit for all that. And then it can get very, very complicated, right? So how would you describe the range of vetting and reporting specifically that's going on under your watch?
David Johnson (18:19.089)
Yeah, and it's a very difficult thing — as you know, JD — to take such a Western mindset, and especially a first-world Western mindset, and place that in a third-world context. Because most third-world people don't think that way. They're just celebrating that people have come to faith in Christ. They're celebrating that a church has been planted.
It's a very foreign concept to those men and women on the other side of the world to report the way that we report. And let me just tell you — there's not an exact science to it, as much as I wish there were. And if someone tells you that their reporting is 100% accurate, I would run from them.
Because the truth of the matter is all of us are doing our very best. And I so appreciate what Jesse Nelms with the Timothy Initiative said the first time I met him — he said, David, we're doing our best so that when we report, it lines up with the Lamb's Book of Life. And the truth of the matter is we do our best. And there are a lot of different — to your question — there are people who will count hands raised and who will even say...
JD (19:47.022)
Yeah, maybe we can talk about the metrics. What are some of the metrics that you find most meaningful? Or maybe not you personally, but Duloss as an organisation — are there specific metrics you're especially keyed into?
David Johnson (20:00.013)
Yeah, so our metrics would be professions of faith. Now, some of our partners' professions of faith are actually quantified off of baptisms. Some will take a hand raise, some will not. Some require seeing fruit in that person's life before counting them as a profession of faith.
Others will say, no, no, no — we're only going to count baptised believers as professions of faith. We will work with several different people that do it in several different ways. There's a trust factor that has to be built over time. So as we work with people, we say, well, what are your regular rhythms? Now, I will say this — for us, our main metric is churches planted. Because I can't look into the heart of a person and know for sure that they've been transformed. I can't look at the heart of a person when somebody puts their hand up and know that that person genuinely went from death to life. But you know what we can do? We can go and see where a church has been planted, and we can see those coordinates. And that's why when somebody says, well, give me your short answer — what is Doulos? We're a church planting organisation.
Now, you have to have evangelism and discipleship in church planting. We use the analogy of a funnel. The large part of the funnel is evangelism. You come down into the narrow of the funnel where you have discipleship. That's why scripture translation is so important to us, and why we invested $1.8 million last year in scripture translation, Bible printing, and distribution.
But what organically comes out of that funnel, and what we can count, are the number of churches and the number of people who are attending those churches.
JD (22:03.33)
Sure. So let's continue with that example. Say a partner or potential partner comes to you and says, we're tracking churches planted based on the activities that we're sponsoring in this region. What is it that you want to see reported exactly?
David Johnson (22:22.907)
Well, I mean, I think one of the key components to me is training and deployment of church planters who have come out of really difficult backgrounds — because they've come out of Islam, they've come out of Hinduism, they've come out of Buddhism, they've come out of being animists. All of a sudden you have these men who really need some form of theological training. And so we know the training is important. We know getting the scripture into those congregations is important — I mean, how in the world can you disciple somebody without the Word of God? So if you're going into a new area — New Generations calls it the three nearest neighbourhoods — well, if you go into the next nearest neighbourhood and it's a different dialect, and you don't have the Word of God in their dialect, we've got to be working really hard to try to get scripture to them. So one of the things we look for is: is that congregation meeting on a regular basis? Is there someone trained to share the Word of God with them and to be able to function like a church with its ordinances of the Lord's Supper and of baptism, and community, and how to share your faith, to tell God's story, to tell your story. So yeah, those are the things that we're looking for — is that church forming like a New Testament church?
JD (24:07.202)
And then on the numbers side, how are you looking for organisations to ideally report their numbers? I understand that people are doing their best, right? And there is a cultural difference — like you mentioned — between how we expect things reported here with a kind of scientific approach versus how oftentimes numbers are counted. I was talking to Ed Michaelson about this in the podcast we did about hand-raising and how you can have two people in a room, right? One Westerner in the room and one
David Johnson (24:19.398)
Mm.
JD (24:37.07)
person who's indigenous to the country where they're working, and they will count hands raised — so they'll count numbers — and they'll get very different numbers because they're working with different levels of care. So I suppose with numbers — do you spot any patterns in ways you often see these numbers of churches planted being counted? Is it as simple as the organisationsasking their church planters or their workers, how many churches did you plant, how many people showed up, and just asking them every few months and then reporting back to you at the end of the year or the quarter? Walk me through how that works and ideally how you'd like it to work. Does that make sense?
David Johnson (25:21.381)
Yeah, I mean, it does. For me personally, I would rather see the reporting happening monthly. The only problem with that is some ministries' rhythms aren't monthly. Some of them are quarterly — and I'm not really going to ask them to recalibrate their entire ministry to report monthly. Some of them report semi-annually. So one of the things that we would require
JD (25:43.352)
Sure, sure.
David Johnson (25:50.759)
of a ministry is that we would need at least a report six months in and then the end-of-year report. That would probably be the most flexibility we would be able to offer on reporting. So that's those reporting rhythms. And then that way we're able to compile the reports and put them on our website — to the best of our ability — and cover what's come in from the previous quarter or the previous month, depending on the rhythm of that particular ministry partner. So there are different rhythms to that.
JD (26:33.07)
Could you give me a concrete example of one — maybe one that's less sensitive — where you're able to share the frequency and the kinds of things they're counting? I'm not sure which partner you would pick, but one of your six partners — maybe an example of how often they report, what numbers they're sharing, and what that looks like.
David Johnson (26:50.919)
Yeah. So I'll use the Timothy Initiative as an example. I just got back from Togo — well, we were actually in Ghana, Togo, and Benin. We were in those countries. They actually have a main office in Togo. So I met with some of their reporting people. So you have — in their context — they have training centres. They have about 450 training centres in the country of Togo. The way they're organised is they have a master teacher, a Paul, a Timothy, and a Titus. And there's a two-year training process going on with about 20 to 25 Timothys per training centre. So they're all over the country. And during those two years, they're encouraging and working with the Timothys and they want to see them plant at least one church in those two years, and also to see a Titus come up under them — whom they're mentoring — so that that Titus would also plant a church in that two-year period. So a lot of it has to do with regional leaders who are sharing with those trained Pauls how many churches have been planted. So each one of those training centres — those 25 Timothys — would be reporting the number of professions of faith and the number of churches planted to their Paul. Now, they have district leaders, regional leaders, and then what they call zonal leaders. So those numbers are coming from the Timothy to the Paul inside that particular training centre, and that Paul is passing those numbers to their zonal leader, who brings them into the main office in Togo. Those numbers are then sent to the US to be compiled with the other 450 training centres in Togo alone. So that's the way they work in 47 countries. You have all of these training centres — I've been in 300 of them — and I've seen how that process
David Johnson (29:13.199)
works. And that's just one example.
JD (29:14.926)
Sure, sure. So on the Timothy Initiative's website, they talk about planting 230,000 churches, with an estimate of a little over two million new disciples since they began. They say that estimate is based on historical averages of new believers per church planted. Do you know if that's based on an average? So is it like the average church has nine new Christians — maybe nine baptisms that they consider valid — and then they're just kind of averaging this out based on the number of churches they've planted since they started?
David Johnson (29:44.263)
Yeah.
David Johnson (29:48.613)
Yeah, I haven't asked this question recently, but I think it was last year or two years ago, we had a conversation and they were seeing — they were averaging about 20 people per church. That was kind of what their average was. Now some areas —
JD (30:06.926)
Sorry — that's 20 people who begin to follow Jesus after attending that church. Okay.
David Johnson (30:10.853)
Yeah, that's right. And so yeah — we've got several partners. I think E3 says seven, as far as new believers forming that church. I would say the Timothy Initiative's runway is probably a little bit longer than that as far as how long the church has been in existence — maybe 20 — but...
JD (30:40.814)
So let's take the Timothy Initiative for a little bit more. And if I ask any questions that you need to do more research on, that's totally fine. So they're supporting financially Timothys that are under the leadership of a Paul, quote unquote, who are preaching the gospel in new places and starting churches. Is it like they're starting Discovery Bible studies and worship groups among nearby villages? Is that right?
David Johnson (31:08.975)
Yeah, let me give you some clarification on one thing. None of the Tituses, none of the Timothys, and none of the Pauls receive any remuneration from TTI. Those guys are all tent-makers. As a matter of fact, almost all of the ministries that we support today — most of their church planters receive no remuneration from Doulos. I would say of the $10.2 million we invested last year, less than 1% of those funds went to remuneration to a church planter. All those funds go to what we call on-ramps. And those on-ramps are Bible translation, printing and distribution, technology, transportation, humanitarian aid, and theological training. Those are our six on-ramps that lead to a healthy, sustainable, reproducing church. So when we give to TTI, those on-ramps go towards those six things.
JD (32:21.454)
So do you know — with the Timothy Initiative's 230,000 churches planted — how many were planted by somebody who, before they planted that church, got involved in the Timothy Initiative and received training or support in some way? Or are these also churches that, after they began, joined the Timothy Initiative or got in contact with a Timothy person?
David Johnson (32:46.883)
No, I'm really not sure about that. But one of the things I would say is that certainly the majority would fit the first description. Most ministries have indigenous partners that they work with. The Timothy Initiative, not so much — they pretty much create their own DNA.
And JD, I would say if there are any that are more of what you described — where it happened long after, or whatever — I would say if that were the case, it would have been in the early days. Certainly not now, because I've seen their system and they're working the plan everywhere in the world.
JD (33:39.458)
Yeah. So you mentioned those six on-ramps — ways that you support groups like the Timothy Initiative. Is one of those a majority of your funding, or is it roughly balanced between those six things?
David Johnson (33:55.483)
Yeah. So we have two different ways that we give to our partners. We give through unrestricted giving. Every penny that comes into Duloss — first of all, we empty our bank account every month. We have what we call Doulos investors who give to Doulos to support our overhead. There are about 50 of them. And then we have those who are Doulos donors — when they give to Doulos, it goes through Doulos to our partners. So those funds are actually divided by six and we send those out every month. It could be $50,000 per partner, it could be $100,000 per partner — whatever comes in that month, those funds are going to them unrestricted.
And JD, they have the freedom to use those funds how they see fit. Now we're asking them to report back to us on what's going on and how those funds are being used. But what we've seen a huge increase in — and you're going to already know this — is project giving. We've seen a huge increase in foundations giving to specific projects over the last two years.
JD (34:57.518)
OK, that's helpful.
David Johnson (35:23.559)
And so our reporting has really moved more and more toward reporting on specific projects and their stated goals. So it's gotten quite different over the last three or four years. Probably five years ago, 80% of our funding was unrestricted.
Whereas now probably 80% of our funding is project giving.
JD (35:54.734)
Okay, and how do you know if an organisation meets the bar? What even is the bar, right? So in global poverty funding, in some circles, there's this idea that the bar we want to beat is helping the poor as much or better than just giving them cash directly would. So you're giving them something of greater value than simply giving them money. That's called cash benchmarking.
David Johnson (36:16.999)
Right.
JD (36:23.278)
I could imagine one bar for supporting global church planting and global missions work being at least as cost-effective as my local church. Maybe for thinking about traditional church models, maybe it costs two or three thousand dollars on average per year for every person in my local church. I at least want to support church or church-like activities abroad for that amount of money.
Maybe I want to do it for a tenth of the cost because I'm working in a very low-cost area, right? And that's often the case, right? How do you think of the bar? If you get an organisation that comes to you, they fill out the vetting document, they're ECFA-aligned, they're a 501(c)(3), they pass the sniff test because they're recommended by friends and partners of yours — help me think through that.
David Johnson (37:14.439)
Yeah. So cost per church plant matters to us. Since inception, every $258 that's been given to Doulos has been able to plant a church in a village that didn't have one. And so when you think about the third world and how far our funds go — when we look at a potential partner, one of the things that we look at — and it's not a deal-breaker — but one of the things we do look at is where is their cost per church plant? Is it $500? Is it $1,000? Is it $10,000? So that is part of our consideration. Now, we also realise — just as when you study the Bible, context is king — context is also king as to where you're serving. For instance, by far, our highest cost per church plant is to the Deaf — by far, off the chart. But we made the decision as an organisation that scripture doesn't say just go where there's low-hanging fruit. It says go to the ends of the earth. And so context matters. If we're doing work in some of the hardest places in the world to reach, we know the cost is going to be higher.
And so we take all of those things into consideration when looking at a potential partner. Now, we do want to be able — to the best of our ability — to look at our investors and say, hey, listen, if you've been giving $1,000 a month, then we've been able to plant four churches per month — you've planted 48 churches over the last year due to your investment. So we do try to — we call it EROI, eternal return on investment. But we don't let that completely drive us. Yet whenever we take on a new partner, we are considering what the cost per church plant would be.
JD (39:26.11)
How do you calculate a cost per church plant if you're funding a lot of different things, right? So I'll give you a counterexample. Imagine you're funding traditional missions in an unreached people group region, and you're funding church planters. From what I've talked to with sending organisations — like 500K — they'll describe that most of the costs for planting the church, and maybe this is incorrect, but I'll hear that most of the cost is the vocational costs for the church planter, and that might be $300 per church planted. And these are very simple churches — they don't have big pipe organs, they don't have expensive summer camps. But like you were describing with the Timothy Initiative, they're not actually remunerating church planters. It might be a different funding stream or direction. And so it seems like it's actually quite complicated to count how it all adds up in churches planted. How do you actually arrive at a number if it's not just dividing all the churches planted by the cost of the church planters? Do you see what I mean?
David Johnson (40:38.491)
Well, I mean, so what we're doing is we're obviously taking how much money we invested in the field for a specific period. We kind of run our numbers annually, even though the reporting comes in at different intervals — it's kind of hard to track when somebody's reporting monthly, some are reporting quarterly, and so on. So we only run our numbers on an annualised basis.
So what you see on the website — as far as the annualised figures — this was the amount of money that was invested in the field, this is the number of churches that were planted. From there you arrive at that number. And that's basically what we do. We just say, okay, we invested $10.2 million in the field. How many churches were planted? Were those churches verified? And that's really the only way we know how to do it.
JD (41:25.195)
Okay, okay.
JD (41:32.578)
No, but that's a helpful clarification. That's more of like a pre-post measurement — I think that's how it would be described in development circles. And so — take a $10 million funding year, right — you're giving that to six organisations. How much of each organisation's costs are you funding, and are you kind of adjusting your output numbers by that fraction? So for instance, if you funded half of the Timothy Initiative's organisation and they report 10,000 churches planted, would you then mark 5,000 church plants as through Doulos partners? Does that make sense? That's how I would guess you would calculate it based on what you said.
David Johnson (42:13.305)
Well, again, realising they're sending us reports and we're using those numbers to calculate ours. So they're not sending us
JD (42:24.766)
Okay. So they're saying based on the money that you've sent us, here's what we've been able to produce. Okay.
David Johnson (42:29.223)
That's right — they're not sending us the total number. We celebrate that with them, like when we go to their vision conference or whatever. But the reality is, we have one of our team members in Nashville who has a master's degree — and actually his undergraduate is in logistics. And so all of our partners are sending all their reports to him. So those reports come to him — the number of churches planted in whatever the cycle was — he compiles those into a spreadsheet and sends those to us. We see the ongoing reports, and then he does that at the end of the year. So he's actually looking not at their overall numbers, but at the numbers that are coming in with regard to the investments that we made.
JD (43:12.59)
Okay, yeah.
JD (43:19.33)
It'd be helpful to have a follow-up nerdy conversation with him. Do you mind sharing his name? He's on your team? Okay, great. Yeah, that's helpful. Okay. So that's a much more diverse portrait of how these numbers are coming in. There's a lot of different kinds of organisations doing different kinds of DMM or church planting, and you're funding them different amounts each year, and they're reporting
David Johnson (43:24.123)
No, not at all — Jason Miglin. Yeah, Jason's been on our team for about five years.
JD (43:48.671)
based on what they've been able to produce with that funding. Do you ever worry or wonder whether they're reporting things that were funded by other people as well? Or whether those things would have happened even if you hadn't funded them?
David Johnson (44:03.963)
Yeah, I've heard some discussions about that from other organisations. And you know, at the end of the day, there does have to be a trust factor in your team and the organisations and the people that you've built relationships with. So now true — there could be things happening in the field that the domestic teams don't know about. I mean, let's be real. There could be things happening in the field that the domestic teams don't know is happening. But I think the way the field organisation works — with someone over that nation, then zonal leaders, district leaders, and guys on the ground — there are those checks and balances in place. And I would say if that happened, JD, it would be a rarity. I don't think
JD (44:57.836)
Yeah. But it's relatively common in the non-profit space, right? We're familiar with this phenomenon in churches where — and I shouldn't say everyone — but you see this happen in a city where you'll ask all the new churches in the city what was the number of their new converts, and it might add up to something like the entire population of that city, or even more. I've seen this happen with missions organisations working in India, where you have multiple different organisations claiming they've converted millions of people —
David Johnson (45:20.315)
Yep.
JD (45:27.51)
more people than there are living in the provinces they're working in, right? There are a lot of people in India, right?
David Johnson (45:30.287)
Yeah, for some of them, like, we could have reached the continent of Africa twice by now, you know.
JD (45:36.46)
So what do you do to be wise about how to sift through that kind of double counting?
David Johnson (45:44.155)
Yeah. Well, again, it comes down to — I'll just use TTI as another example since I was just there. When I met with their field reps, I was able to talk to those guys because they're not the person creating the outcome. They're the people who are verifying the outcomes. And you have to trust somebody, JD. I mean, that's just the reality.
Because I can't — we're in almost 200 countries. You can't be everywhere. So you do at some point say, I've been to the field 200 times. I've asked the questions. I've met with field reps. I've been in the van going from village to village with a field rep and watched them work. And so you just have to do the very best you can with that and then trust the Lord with the rest.
JD (46:25.25)
Right.
JD (46:30.008)
Right, right.
JD (46:39.726)
Yeah. Like, would it surprise you if the cost per church planted wasn't like $250, but more like $2,000? Like it's still well below what it is in the West — I don't know, maybe $200,000 per year or something — but once you suss out all of the double counting and all of the counterfactuals, things that would have happened anyway, maybe the real impact of the funding is like some kind of output that's a few times higher in cost than what's reported.
JD (47:11.854)
Because it wouldn't surprise me. It would still be very impressive, and I think it would be worth seriously considering for funding for people interested in this. I would just expect that that kind of thing is already happening all the time anyway. And it's important to do the due diligence you can do with the level of evidence gathering that's possible with the groups you're working with.
David Johnson (47:14.748)
Right.
David Johnson (47:32.443)
Yeah, I would say that's certainly possible — that it would be higher. I don't know that it would be a 2x. Yeah.
JD (47:39.362)
Yeah, that's helpful, that's helpful. Okay, so I want to respect your time, because I wanted to ask just to close some career questions — especially for young and talented Christians who want to support global church planting efforts — and some of the opportunities there, some of the bottlenecks. Do we have five minutes, or is 10 or 15 minutes possible? Either is okay, I just want to respect your time.
David Johnson (48:02.597)
Yeah, I mean, I'm good on time — you have me until you're done with me. How about that?
JD (48:09.738)
Okay, sounds good. And we'll finish this up when you come to the conference in November, if I haven't scared you off. But this has been very, very helpful so far. Yeah, you're going to love it. I think you're going to love it. And your son too — coming. Scott is his name? Brian. Okay, my mistake. Great. Okay. So your path is, in some ways, a
David Johnson (48:16.359)
No, no, I can't wait for the conference. Yep, it's going to be great. Yep. Brian. Yeah. No, no — I was talking about Scott Gorski earlier. I'll give you a pass.
JD (48:40.022)
well-trodden path, you know — successful business person, planted a church in the US, people are familiar with these things. You didn't plan to co-found Doulos Partners and it was very much a God thing.
Now, if someone is listening to this podcast and is interested in going to the 10/40 Window or serving the least, the last, the lost — supporting missions so that there is a church in every village — what's some high-level career advice that you would give? And I'll ask for some more specifics in a bit related to Doulos, but what's some of the high-level career advice you would give for the missions space?
David Johnson (49:19.761)
Yeah, I would say, man — I think one of the greatest things I've learned from my Doulos experience — I occasionally get asked the question, what have been some of your takeaways? And I would say in the first seven or eight years, my takeaway was: I've seen the world get smaller and smaller, while at the same time my view of God gets bigger and bigger.
And I think that when I look at — not just the next generation of leaders, but the young leaders who are engaging today — I think they have this view that God is alive and well and He's working simultaneously through the church around the world. And as I meet more and more people your age, man — you guys are way further down the road in really grasping a kingdom vision, which is extremely important. The second thing I would say is: I'm not responsible for the outcomes — which is very different from the way I was raised in the West, which says if you want it, you have to earn it. And I do believe in working hard. But the reality is, when I own the outcomes, I'm more prone to do most anything to accomplish that outcome. So what I'm saying is: we at Doulos really live our lives around 1 Corinthians 3:6, where it says Paul planted, Apostles watered, but God brings the increase. So that's something I've had to learn and that God has had to teach me. I'm only responsible
JD (51:04.696)
God gave the growth. Yeah.
David Johnson (51:15.559)
for being obedient, for following Him, for working as unto Him, and then trusting Him with the outcome. So if it's $1,000, $100,000, $1 million, $10 million — now, where the engagement happens after that, JD, is in the stewardship. So at Duloss we're planting, we're watering, God's bringing the increase.
And then from there, our responsibility becomes to steward what He's entrusted us. So I think what I would say to this generation of leaders is: how has God gifted you? How has He wired you? How has He called you? Doulos’ sweet spot donor is Christian business owners and business leaders.
And I think one of the greatest tools that God is using today are Christian owners and Christian business leaders who are the funding mechanism. That's the gospel of patronage — exactly right. Now, I will say this. I was asked on a panel last February — David, you've been in the missions space now for almost 18 years, 36 years of full-time ministry —
JD (52:22.562)
Gospel patrons, right?
David Johnson (52:38.693)
What are you most excited about in the missions space today? And my answer is the same today: it's the collision between technology and boots on the ground. Because one of the things that Doulos is involved in is an organisation called the Coalition of the Willing. I've been to every coalition meeting since January of 2021, and we've invested heavily in a software called iShare.
This is literally taking data down to the village level. There are 25 member sending agencies of the Coalition that are using iShare. And for the first time, JD, in the history of the world, there are organisations that are sharing data. And as a result of that kind of cooperation and collaboration, we are seeing an acceleration.
I mean, literally — I was just in Togo — the entire country of Togo has been mapped. We know where every village is. That's exactly right. So when I think about somebody who's gifted in technology, there is a place in the technology-ministry world to serve.
JD (53:43.66)
And what's the data that's being shared on iShare? Is it like
JD (54:00.098)
sharing gospel resources, or information about church attendance and things like that?
David Johnson (54:06.309)
Yeah, and not only that — to me, the bigger share is where are the gaps? Where are the villages that have no Christians and no church in proximity to the villages that do have Christians and at least one church? And these ministries can actually go after the gaps. We've never had that before. We can actually see where the villages are. I was in a red village in Togo that we knew had no believers, and I got a chance to share the Three Circles, and a family — a family of five — came to faith in Christ, and two teenage boys who had walked up came to faith in Christ. We saw that village go literally from red to yellow, which means Christians — no church planted there yet. We are living in a world...
JD (54:55.79)
Is there a map we can share with listeners of the podcast who want to see something live like that? Or is it still more internal among the organisations?
David Johnson (54:59.943)
Yeah, it really is internal. And what we can do is probably share something with that at the conference where you can have it in your hand. But on the Coalition of the Willing website, I think you can see a visualisation of a map that
JD (55:14.446)
Okay, sounds good.
David Johnson (55:27.227)
shows how it works. So yeah, I would say business owners who are — there's an organisation called BAM — Business as Mission. Fantastic.
JD (55:34.509)
Yeah. Business as Mission. All the Liberty grads who apply to us for career advising are super sold on BAM. And then I'm like, well, have you heard about global church planting and gospel patronage? I think there's an intersection here, but we're using different terminology.
David Johnson (55:54.512)
Yep, that's exactly right. And technology, JD, is playing a huge role. Literally, our church planters are going with their handhelds into a village asking two questions: are there any Christians here, or is there a church here? And if the answer is no, they upload that on their handheld, and when they get to the internet, it goes into iShare and uploads that village as red automatically.
And it's showing us where the gaps are. It's the best plan I've seen in my 36 years of ministry.
JD (56:31.963)
All right, David — I've got a few spicy questions. Short question, short answer, maybe 30 seconds or less. You ready for that? What do you think about the earn-to-give strategy? Christians who want to earn as much money as possible in ethical ways — not cutting corners — build a business, earn as much money as possible, and fund missions as much as possible. What do you think of that earn-to-give for missions model?
David Johnson (56:39.815)
Okay, yep.
David Johnson (56:57.073)
I think that's fantastic. I think we're seeing more and more people moving away from leaving huge sums of money to their family. They're helping their family as they should, but they're using those funds for the kingdom. I think it's fantastic.
JD (57:12.994)
Why do you think more Christians in the West aren't already giving globally for church planting, for missions? Like, why the great imbalance? How did we even end up here?
David Johnson (57:22.383)
Well, I can tell you — we live in an affluent culture that's all about us. It's all about building wealth. It's a house, a lake house, a beach house, a country club membership. It's saying, hey, we've arrived because we have all this stuff. And we're having to unlearn that and unteach that. And so I think that's part of the reason. I think we're just stingy and we hold onto it.
JD (57:49.398)
If you're a Christian and you want to start a missions organisation, what are some quick dos and don'ts that you would recommend?
David Johnson (57:57.637)
Yeah, I would say: don't start something that others are already good at and are already doing. Come alongside them, join them, work together with them. You know, when we started Doulos, we didn't know there was anything even close. Now there is the Finishing Fund — that's Doug Cobb — which is kind of close to us, but there's not much that's like Duloss. I would say, unless it's really unique, find someone who's doing something adjacent and either join them or at least get them to help you get started.
JD (58:36.526)
What are some other needs and opportunities for gospel entrepreneurship that you see and would love to see organisations built around in the next decade or two? Be as specific as possible.
David Johnson (58:46.437)
Yeah. No, that's really interesting. I would say just the technology sector alone — I think there's so much more that we can do with technology. We just did a project doing some Starlink in North Africa that allowed some of our church planters to come together. Man, I just think that if people can really dial in to help with technology that accelerates communication, collaboration, and strategy — I think that is absolutely the thing that will accelerate the Great Commission.
JD (59:37.998)
Do you think you could do the work that you do now without your business background, without your church background? In some sense, it seems like those were necessary stepping stones for you to get the experience, the management experience, the leadership experience, the fundraising experience to do what you do now. Is that wrong? And if I'm not, does that speak to people maybe not starting out in missions, but instead starting out in the private sector gaining skills, or maybe even doing a stint in church ministry?
David Johnson (01:00:01.477)
Yeah. Well, let me just tell you — I think this will answer your question, but I'm coming to it from my church experience. So when a young man would come to me and say, I feel like God's calling me to be a pastor, how would you instruct me to go forward? I would say, well, you can go to a Christian school — there's nothing wrong with going to a Christian school — but get a business degree. Go get a business degree, come out of school, get a real job somewhere for two or three years, then go to seminary, get your theological training, and then ask God to plant you into a church. Because if you're pastoring business people and you have no clue about business, about how business people think and how business is run — and besides that, it's going to make you a better pastor, because some of these pastors are running multimillion dollar organisations. So yeah, I would say anything you can do to blend economics, accounting, management, leadership — all those things — with theology, with an understanding of Scripture, an understanding of the church and how the church works. I think that's a win.
JD (01:01:17.088)
All right. I want to ask you a funny hypothetical. Okay — so if you have more questions about it, feel free. Imagine you have two buttons, right? One button automatically sends $100,000 to Duloss Partners. The other button automatically sends $1 million to the average church in the US. Which one would you fund, right —
David Johnson (01:01:23.504)
Okay.
JD (01:01:44.535)
accepting that you are of course the head of Doulos Partners?
David Johnson (01:01:48.679)
Well, I would definitely push the $100,000 button to Doulos.
JD (01:01:53.538)
Where's the break-even then? Like, at what point is it equal between pressing the two buttons? I have a number in my head, but I'm kind of curious what that number would be for you.
David Johnson (01:02:03.772)
I would say probably at 50%. That would be my answer.
JD (01:02:11.202)
Well, this is a 10x difference. So it'd be a million to the average church or $100,000 to Doulos.
David Johnson (01:02:16.963)
Okay. So I didn't understand your question.
JD (01:02:19.598)
All right, let me rephrase. The follow-up is: at what point would the funding to Doulos be so low that you'd rather fund the average church in the US? Does that make sense?
David Johnson (01:02:32.583)
Yeah. Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. Man, I don't know. I just — there's so much wealth in the US — I just can't see me funding the average church when those funds can go so far in the third world. I mean, you can plant a church in a village for $250, right?
JD (01:03:01.23)
I mean — for $10,000, would you rather $10,000 go to one of your partner organisations or $1 million to the average American church? $10,000 to your average partner versus $1 million to the average church — you'd prefer $10,000. I would too. I think to me that'd be about the break-even — if we're getting below $10,000, like is it more than a hundred times more impactful per dollar? I'm not so sure anymore. But
David Johnson (01:03:01.382)
I just don't.
David Johnson (01:03:10.031)
Yeah, I would.
David Johnson (01:03:15.417)
Absolutely, I absolutely would. Yep.
David Johnson (01:03:28.614)
Yep.
JD (01:03:30.104)
to me it's better than 10-to-1, preferable to the average. Yeah. And I think that's actually something that maybe the average Christian in the US would just find kind of shocking — if there really is such a disparity of need. But it seems clear to me that there really is. Yeah, nice. So any other — okay, so you're young,
David Johnson (01:03:34.789)
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that.
David Johnson (01:03:44.007)
Hmm.
David Johnson (01:03:47.847)
Hmm.
David Johnson (01:03:51.609)
Yeah, there is. I agree.
JD (01:03:58.734)
talented generalists — could do business as mission, could earn a lot of money and give it to missions, could get a business degree or work in the private sector a few years and then maybe become a pastor. So if somebody becomes a pastor — forgive me, I mean, you can tell what I think — but isn't there a really strong case that they should use their platform as a pastor to champion global church planting or global missions, right? Like that might be, if it's really the case that every dollar is a hundred times more impactful sent abroad, one of the most impactful parts of pastoral ministry is just spotlighting global partners like Doulos Partners.
David Johnson (01:04:40.081)
Well, one would think so, but the reality is most churches spend the majority of their money on themselves. And I can say that because I was a pastor who spent the majority of our money on ourselves. The truth of the matter is, until we catch that vision as the church — and let me tell you, JD, knowing what I know today,
JD (01:04:49.048)
Right.
David Johnson (01:05:07.545)
if I was the pastor of a church today, Doulos or a ministry like Doulos would be a ministry that I would partner with — because it allows not only funds to support ministries all over the world, but it's also a mechanism that we can send our people to the field. And especially smaller churches that don't have missions pastors, they don't have big budgets, they don't have those kinds of resources — investing in a Doulos means those funds are being invested wisely. They're also vetting those partners and it's a venue that you can send someone from your church to the field to see the work. So I would definitely do that today if I was the pastor of a local church.
JD (01:05:56.184)
So you have someone coming to you asking for career advice, vocational advice. They sense a call to ministry, right? They're considering becoming a pastor, but they're convinced of what we've talked about. They see the need, they see the great imbalance. They really agree that funding for global missions or church planting is a hundred-to-one more impactful than the average local church in the US. Would you tell them — hey, this should mean that there probably isn't as effective a ministry for you in the US? Like maybe God's calling you to do that in a supernatural way and that's okay — we want to respect and honour God's calling, and by all means do what God calls you to do. But do you tell them like, you know, instead work for a place like Duloss? Or do you say, no — go start a church and be a funder, be a partner. That's maybe one of the best ways to be a gospel patron — not just to give yourself, but to raise up other givers by virtue of being a respected church leader. Or does that seem kind of manipulative — like you're pretending to be a local church pastor and caring about local needs, but actually just channelling money abroad? Because as soon as you have what seems to me like a pretty compelling worldview — a hundred-X differential between the impact of the average dollar locally versus globally — you start having to kind of gamify these opportunities. So I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that?
David Johnson (01:07:26.245)
Well, I would say first of all — whenever we interview somebody for Duloss, the first thing I say is: if you're looking for a job, this is not the place for you. We want you at Doulos if you feel like you're being called to Doulos. And I would say to someone: if you feel like you're being called to be a pastor, absolutely — you need to be trained, you need to start a church plant, or you need to go wherever God calls you. And let me just remind you, pastor, that Jesus said we're to go to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. And Jesus didn't really quantify that with dollars. The reality is we should be going across the street, and we should be going across our city. We do have the poor. We do have people here who we need to minister to.
JD (01:08:07.342)
Right.
David Johnson (01:08:25.113)
Ministry dollars are best stewarded when we're being good stewards of what God's entrusted to us. Now, we should not do that...
JD (01:08:37.294)
But here's an example — someone comes and says, I feel called to be a pastor, and there are seven churches on your street, and 95% of the people already have a church. And John Smith wants to start church number eight and he's really confident about his call, right. And it's like, you want to be pastoral and you want to respect that God could be calling him — because God calls people to do seemingly crazy stuff in scripture. And the Holy Spirit works in ways that are above my understanding. God's ways are not my ways. But at the same time, you've got to be thinking — come on, man, have you really thought this through? Does that ever happen in your mind?
David Johnson (01:09:16.411)
Yeah, yeah. I would be the first to encourage that pastor — man, go where there are no churches. Get out of the Bible Belt where they're on every corner. We need to take the church in the US where the church isn't. Plant a church there. You then get to, under God's leadership, create a DNA in a congregation that is
JD (01:09:24.972)
Right, right.
David Johnson (01:09:45.539)
a global church-planting, kingdom-minded congregation that reaches out to the poor and reaches around the world with the gospel. And you get to create that DNA. Don't go somewhere there's a church on every corner. I would never counsel somebody to do that today.
JD (01:10:00.674)
Right, right.
Yeah, that's helpful. Okay, great. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much, David. I want to give you the final word — share any closing thoughts or ways people can get plugged in.
David Johnson (01:10:13.767)
Yeah, man, I'm so excited about what God's doing in and through Doulos and our partners, and the collaborative effort, and what's happening through the Coalition, and what's happening through iShare — the acceleration of what God's doing. I just stand in awe of that. And I would just say, if we can help you in any way — go to the field. If we can help you in any way to plant a church, or if you would like more information, I would be delighted to jump on a call or a Zoom and we would just love to have you be a part of the Doulos family.
JD (01:10:51.146)
What's the best way for people to stay plugged in? Go to your website, become a newsletter subscriber?
David Johnson (01:10:56.421)
Yep. Just go to the homepage and scroll to the bottom and you can kind of get into the flow of everything. And they can easily give online, and we'd be glad to partner in any way that we can.
JD (01:11:11.15)
Well, you heard it — we'll have the links below. And thank you so much, David. Looking forward to seeing you at the conference this fall and supporting you in the future. Thanks again so much for coming on.
David Johnson (01:11:20.229)
Well, thanks for having me. It was awesome.
